Alarming rise in stabbing cases

That was worded clumsily, I didn't mean recruited to deal with gang warfare per se, but as you say Iam, to reflect the racial make up of the communities they are dealing with.

TerriBull, of course the Police should reflect the communities they serve. There are difficulties in recruiting, then retaining Police Officers from black and ethnic minority communities.
I don't believe that 'far more black police officers should be recruited to deal with the issue of gang warfare". I agree we need more black and ethnic minority police officers but to serve the whole community not only to focus on gang warfare.

I think Amber Rudd made a massive faux pas when she stated that she didn't see a connection between reduced policing and the rise in stabbings.

There are of course a lot of factors, as others have stated, I recently saw an interview with the father of a son left very disabled by a knife attack, he said he thought it was often the lack of a father being around that led young boys to attaching themselves at quite a young age to gangs. The void they experience is replaced by a sense of fraternity or extended family within the gang, whilst all the while they are insidiously drawn into a life of crime before they know it. As well as absent fathers there are of course a lack of male teachers in schools. Boys do need male role models. Into that mix there are also the violent videos on You Tube an outlet for pent up machismo and male bravado where gang members have a platform to boast about taking out opponents. I believe the Police have repeatedly asked for many of these to be taken down but many still remain

As per a previous post, David Lammy and his constituency is in the thick of it, stated that guns are very readily available through Albanian gang McMaffia trafficking. He also stated that some demographics may be desensitised to extreme violence as this may be part of life from where they came from.

Because of the sensitivity of race, maybe far more black police officers should be recruited to deal with the issue of gang warfare.

oldwoman so what would you attribute Scotlands success to? Our police dont carry guns .Recently there was a delegation of American police personnel visiting our Police College ,as part of that visit they were driven around the streets of Glasgow on a Saturday night.They were amazed at how our police work...without resorting to vilence or guns.Thought the banter between drunks and police officers was astonishing and said that if a drunk had spoken to a PC in the states in that way he'd have been told to get on the ground and cuffed...or have a gun pointed at him.Not engaged in a jokey conversation .

After these men and women returned to America they published a report in the Washington Times about there visit and what they had learned from it .I think a lot can be learned from Glasgows approach to crime .The succes is proven .

A multi-agency approach has got to be the best. Police, Community, ex gang members (for advice), local politicians. Govt policies have not helped: reduction in police numbers (and they are still to reduce budgets still further for the Met.), cuts in social services, cuts in education etc. etc.
We need to stop social media from showing gang violence, rethink our approach to drugs. I could go on......

Whilst I agree more police on the streets would help to prevent crime, I think quoting that New York achieved success with more police on the street does forget the fact that American police carry, and use, guns.

I am sure that lowering police numbers has not helped this sad situation, but there are so many other factors involved here. Young people who belong to gangs get their feeling of belonging from the gangs, which should rightly be coming from their families, who should also be actively involved in preventing their children from becoming involved in drugs. The problem is deeply rooted in society, with far too many disfunctional families. Unfortunately I don't see this changing any time soon, so probably an increased police presence would help to stop the violence, but not its root cause.

I heard a discussion on Radio 5 a few weeks ago where parents of knife carrying youngsters in London were in despair, asking that stop and search was increased as they thought it was the only way to prevent kids carrying knives.

If they tried to stop their children, they would say that they needed a knife as otherwise they would become a victim. A bit of a vicious circle. I need a knife because otherwise I get stabbed.

I don’t know how practical it would be to install metal detectors at the entrance to tube stations, large shops, youth clubs etc. I believe metal detecting wands are available free or cheaply to check for knives.

It seems that youth clubs are often the meeting place for these gangs so more police liaison with youth clubs might help.

No one is saying cuts in police are the only cause, but to deny any connection is surely head in the sand stuff if not an outright deception. Might as well say we don't need any police at all if there is no connection. Yes, there are lots of social and economic variables which have led to this situation, but government cuts in education, sports clubs, early years and family support, also could be contributory factors.

It’s also, as. cressida Dick said recently, impossible to police your way out of the increase in knife and other violent crime. It needs a multi agency strategy as well as commitment from the public from all communities to work together to change things for the better.
It’s a real mess isn’t it.

Would it be better to have more police , obviously, but It is not as simple as saying the cuts to the numbers of police is the cause of the spate of killings in my opinion.

I don believe the cuts in police numbers has done anything positive. Serving and retired officers also point to the cuts to preventive and supportive social work services and the probation service.

Who believes the government’s position that the savage cuts in police numbers have nothing to do with the increase in violent crime? There are 20,000 fewer police now thanks to T May.

The problem with "Stop and Search" is that it contributes massively to the distrust of the police in some communities. So although it may occasionally lead to weapons being found and confiscated it also leaves a substantial amount of bad feeling and cooperation is essential to improve things. The Glasgow model is certainly with looking at and possibly adapting. One thing is certain any good intervention programme will require substantial funding

Good post POGS and I agree that the police should not pussy foot about the stop and search because they target mainly black youths (London) this is because they fit the demographic of knife carrying gang members.
I do think that the Internet plays a big part in the knife crime as well,as do a lot of the rap music content and the DJ’s comments.

Easy to blame lack of police on the streets, the days of Bobby on the beat are gone, those joining the force now often have degrees, they do not go to university to pound the pavements. I can remember when police moved off the streets into traffic Being on the beat was viewed the bottom of the pile. And how many police would it take to patrol all the streets of a city. All we hear now is talk of a devided country, them and us, this encourages more gangs

POGS - I've read your detailed post quickly (I'm cooking). My comments about stop and search were based on the figures about the lack of prosecutions linked to the practice. I do understand your comments and I read an article by Trevor Phillips today which made very similar points to the one's you make.
My area sounds to be similar to yours, it's young white men, sometimes supported and encouraged by young white women, who cause problems. They drink in the park, set fire to benches, rip up the spring flowers our friends of the park planted, drink alcohol and smoke cannabis etc etc.
If I lived 4 miles down the road, it would be Asian youths, never supported by Asian girls or young women, who caused difficulties. They wouldn't be vandalising things but they would be tearing about at speed and dealing various drugs.
Our African refugee populations young people are still heavily involved in the evangelical Church. The Polish kids ditto with the Catholic Churches. None of them currently contribute to anti social behaviour locally. Its the white British and the Pakistani kids. We have a very very small Afro Caribbean population but a very large one 10 miles away.

I'm rambling a bit - but what I'm acknowledging is that targeted stop and search has its place.

Excellent post POGS, I agree with your summary. The police are having to tread a very fine line when they stop and search; trying to juggle law enforcement, prevention of crime and an awareness of ethnic divisions and unrest and being judged by the public if they get it wrong.

You could increase police numbers, you could up ' Stop and Search ' but you need to first be honest about who is at the epicentre of the rise in the crime any crime not just the recent London issue.

Iam 64 I hope you will allow me to use your post to show what I mean without feeling I am confronted your view, especially as it was the view of the NY Police Officer..

" The other issue discussed, was stop and search. He confirmed the research we have in the UK that it doesn't help reduce crime. Given the disproportionate number of BEM people subject to stop and search, it seems to contribute to the lack of trust many in those communities have in the Police."

This is a repeated opinion I have heard from MP's, commentators etc. but it fails to say why BEM youths are disproportionately subject to Stop and Search. It's as though it has become accepted by many that it is a racist issue on the part of the Police and no other avenue of thought is permitted.

So let's question why statistics show BEM youths may be a target rationally.

If you lived in my town you would say White youths would be disproportionately targeted under Stop and Search . Why. Because that is the make up up of my town. If you do a Stop and Search and have to record the ethnicity of the person stopped then it will inevitably mirror the ethnicity of that area so the facts would say White youths are disproportionately a target of Stop and Search. If there is a crime spree then the obvious place to look at is who, what is behind it then target where required.

Why would you Stop and Search older people if the problem is youth related as it is with current gang related incidents?

Why would you Stop and Search in an area where the crimes are not taking place?

Why would you Stop and Search somebody if a crime is commuted by a person of a known ethnicity somebody of a different colour.?

If as could possibly happen, or even thinking hyperthetically, this moves to other areas of the country and it is evident it is a white ethnicity gang related problem would the voices be saying the ' White youths are being disproportionately stopped and searched'? I think not.

We are kidding ourselves if we cannot accept there are pockets of society that hold a hate/dislike of our police and governance . Sadly when I hear the likes of a well known female London MP call the police institutionally racist I wonder how any respect between certain communities and the police can ever be established but there are some who are doing their best. What is happening at the moment has many issues drugs, gangs, social media, no respect for law and order etc. The excuses I hear from some commentators to be honest sadly makes me wonder if it will ever change.

Is it the result of police Stop and Search and BEM distrust? It is to many you listen to but that is a cop out in my opinion and unless the mentality of gangs and the acceptance that they have been allowed to fester over the years are now at a level where you either stamp them out and the canker that goes alongside them or things carry on being the same old , same old blame it anybody accept those prepared to kill .

It must be a living hell for parents with children who are both in a gang or not living in London or indeed elsewhere where gangs, drugs lack of respect for life has become the norm. There are those who will use their children as nothing more than foot soldiers to do their dirty work usually pimping and drug running they must be terrified to let their children out of their sight and I feel for those parents who just want as we all do to bring up their children safely and to live a happy life.

I think the chance for any change has to come from within those communities taking the lead for themselves working with the police and that is where the rub is and always has been. Perhaps the shock of the recent killings will in an odd way bring about the change required but the alternatives are stay as things are or the police having to try the alternative and use their power to stamp it out, the latter option will no doubt be seen to divide opinion as it does now and the the police will be in a no win situation either way of that I have no doubt.

Yes I agree with others more policing needed. When I was in New York a few years ago, not just one or two but clusters of police officers everywhere their presence is very visible.

The poor victims, often not gang members themselves, but sometimes very tenuously linked to someone the gang want to take out. I gather gangs put up very disturbing and violent videos on You Tune, once again why aren't they taken down.

David Lammy, and I guess he should know, stated that Albanian gangs have added to the problem bringing in weapons and drugs. Albania isn't even a member state yet .

I heard the interview with the former NY chief of Police Chewbacca refers to. He was impressive and the statistics prove that the huge increase in police numbers made a positive impact.
The other issue discussed, was stop and search. He confirmed the research we have in the UK that it doesn't help reduce crime. Given the disproportionate number of BEM people subject to stop and search, it seems to contribute to the lack of trust many in those communities have in the Police.
When you have senior police officers referring not only to the cuts in their service but to all the other preventive and support services, as a contributory factor to the problems, you'd hope the government would finally get the message.

I listened to an interview with the New York Chief of Police, earlier this week. He said that in the 1990s, there were over 2000 murders a year but, by massively increasing the numbers of police officers on the streets, they reduced the number to 300 in 2017. On New Year's Eve they had 6000 extra police officers on patrol, in addition to their normal police on duty. If we want to reduce crime rates in London and our other major cities, we need to be increasing police presence too. Between 2010 - 2017, police officers across the UK have been cut by 20,000.

I think decriminalising drugs would make a dent in the gangs' raison d'etre.

I'd agree that there are no simple answers. I live in London and there have been a few stabbings pretty close to me. The police do a really good job here of making themselves seen, so I don't think it's a lack of visibility that's an issue. My local police use Nextdoor (a local community website) to keep us informed and answer any questions, they ask people where to patrol, about problem areas etc, they hold drop-in sessions at least once a month, they even show where the foot patrols have walked every day. I can't fault them.
My understanding is that a lot of the shootings and stabbings are drugs and/or gang related. I think this is why a more holistic approach is needed - it's a result of social problems, not policing problems.

violent crime ,in particular knife crime down by 43% in Glasgow,
Crime in general down 70% in the past ten years.
We have of course been increasing our Police force,though a lot of civilian staff have been made redundant .

Apparently they are rethinking those redundancies and putting the extra 1000 police back out on the streets instead of many being used for back room duties
The ethnic minorities employed by the police have risen in recent years with sikh and moslem officers being able to wear turbans and the veil.
I think that makes a difference to the young people in their communities as they see someone who they can identify with