Should parliament vote before there is an air strike?

Baggs, no of course,it was for Assad's large swimming pool, of course.

All war is disgusting and all weapons are terrible. Here are some extracts from an article in the Guardian in June 2014 relating to the use of depleted uranium during the invasion of Iraq:

"US fired depleted uranium at civilian areas in 2003 Iraq war, report finds

"Dutch peace group Pax says findings show US was in breach of official advice meant to prevent suffering in conflicts

"US forces fired depleted uranium (DU) weapons at civilian areas and troops in Iraq in breach of official advice meant to prevent unnecessary suffering in conflicts, a report has found.

"Coordinates revealing where US jets and tanks fired nearly 10,000 DU rounds in Iraq during the war in 2003 have been obtained by the Dutch peace group Pax.

"According to PAX's report, which is due to be published this week, the data shows that many of the DU rounds were fired in or near populated areas of Iraq, including As Samawah, Nasiriyah and Basrah. At least 1,500 rounds were also aimed at troops, the group says.

.."PAX estimates that there are more than 300 sites in Iraq contaminated by DU, which will cost at least $30m to clean up. DU is a chemically toxic and radioactive heavy metal attractive to weapons designers because it is extremely hard and can pierce armour."

Link to full article:
www.gransnet.com/forums/culture/a1211396-Art-is-culture-right?msgid=25372561#25372561

A headline from the Guardian in October 2013:

"How the World Health Organisation covered up Iraq's nuclear nightmare

"Ex-UN, WHO officials reveal political interference to suppress scientific evidence of postwar environmental health catastrophe

......."For years, medical doctors in Iraq have reported "a high level of birth defects." Other peer-reviewed studies have documented a dramatic increase in infant mortality, cancer and leukaemia in the aftermath of US military bombardment. In Fallujah, doctors are witnessing a "massive unprecedented number" of heart defects, and an increase in the number of nervous system defects. Analysis of pre-2003 data compared to now showed that "the rate of congenital heart defects was 95 per 1,000 births - 13 times the rate found in Europe."

In November 2005, the BBC made this report:

"US used white phosphorus in Iraq

"US troops used white phosphorus as a weapon in last year's offensive in the Iraqi city of Falluja, the US has said.

"It was used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants," spokesman Lt Col Barry Venable told the BBC - though not against civilians, he said.

"The US had earlier said the substance - which can cause burning of the flesh - had been used only for illumination.

"BBC defence correspondent Paul Wood says having to retract its denial is a public relations disaster for the US.

"Col Venable denied that white phosphorous constituted a banned chemical weapon.

White phosphorus is an incendiary weapon, not a chemical weapon. Washington is not a signatory to an international treaty restricting the use of the substance against civilians."

Patrick Coburn in the I today wrote:

"Syria is being destroyed because it has become the arena in which international and regional rivalries are fought out. Foreign intervention fuels the civil war and the civil war entraps outside sponsors of local proxies in their sectarian battles.

...........

"Negotiations to end the Syrian war in general, not just the side issue of chemical weapons, should be the priority but these are difficult and not just because of the complexity of the issues. The media is to blame for presenting the civil war as a simple fight between evil (Assad) and good (anybody opposed to Assad). This demonisation makes the compromises necessary to bring peace near impossible because nobody dares be seen shaking hands with the devil. This leaves missile strikes as the only instrumnet of policy, but these will only prolong the war."

(Patrick Cockburn is an award-winning writer who specialises in analysis of Iraq, Syria and wars in the Middle East. In 2014 he forecast the rise of Isis before it was well known, and has written extensively about it and other players in the region.)

paddyann Sat 14-Apr-18 16:54:27

The UN have announced that victims say it was Syrian rebels who used the chemical weapons NOT Assads government
--

Really?

When did they say that?

Granny 23

" So Syria... Chemical attacks are abhorrent, lets not be unclear on that. However, the first chemical attacks in Syria were 6 years ago..... and nothing was done. "

Because initially China and Russia kept vetoing any move from the UN to deal with it. . China has had a change of heart I believe and it will be interesting to see how it responds to the live goings on in the UN as we type.
--

"Let's be clear again, this is illegal."

That is a statement that is not factual as far as I can see it.
---

NATO have just backed the USA/UK/FRANCE .

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said all NATO allies back the Syria airstrikes by the U.S., UK and France.

He said "No practical alternative" and said he had been briefed all along by the US /UK and France if I remember him correctly.

Mrs May is evil every day in her vile treatment of the poor ,the sick the vulnerable and the disabled .You dont have to be evil on the scale of Hitler to get the label .

Well we certainly sent them stuff to make Sarin
However, in July 2014 the then foreign secretary, William Hague, confirmed to parliament that the UK had indeed exported chemicals that “were likely to have been diverted for use in the Syrian programme”.

Hague revealed that the exports included several hundred tonnes of the chemical dimethyl phosphite (DMP) in 1983 and a further export of several hundred tonnes in 1985; several hundred tonnes of trimethyl phosphite (TMP) in 1986; and a quantity of hydrogen fluoride (HF) in 1986 through a third country.

Hague told parliament: “All these chemicals have legitimate uses, for example in the manufacture of plastics and pharmaceuticals. However, they can also be used in the production of sarin. DMP and TMP can also be used for the production of the nerve agent VX. That is why the export of such goods is strictly prohibited under the UK export regime introduced since the 1980s and progressively strengthened.”

He added: “From the information we hold, we judge it likely that these chemical exports by UK companies were subsequently used by Syria in their programmes to produce nerve agents, including sarin.”
If it is done once it can be done again

The UN have announced that victims say it was Syrian rebels who used the chemical weapons NOT Assads government

I very much doubt if the US or France or the UK supply chlorine for use as a weapon to anyone in the world.

But not to a country that supplies the means of making chemical weapons like the USA, or the UK? Or a country that sells arms to countries like Saudi Arabia that will be used to bomb women and children? Because it's only EVIL to USE the weapons not to PROVIDE them. After all it's just about making money isn't it?

FGS TM and DT are not evil!! Hitler was evil, Mussolini was evil, as was Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot + their henchmen! Are you seriously suggesting that T.M, D.T not forgetting Macron are on a par with these monsters?!!!

That is a word you can apply to Assad though if you like.

By applying a bit of logic and intelligence paddyann and not assuming that all wrongdoing is done by the UK and the US.And by not thinking they are EVIL for a start.

So to be clear you believe TM & DT are Evil & on a par with ASSAD.?

sadly its the EVIL men and women who are in charge here and in the USA ...now how do we deal with that ?

Exactly Bridgeit
Granny23 I won’t say what I honestly think of your DD’s comments, but suffice to say she is not alone on social media to indulge in conspiracy theories.She fails to mention Macron btw.
Ilegal? So is the use of chemical weapons!

Great post Lemongrove,

Ohh that the whole world could get on , be equal , etc etc but it isn’t & never will be.

Sometimes tough decisions have to be made , thankfully not by armchair experts.

Only hindsight will dictate the rights or wrongs of this particular situation .
We (the general public) do not have the full facts , we only have our opinions & interpretations ,inevitably actions speak louder than words
We are not frozen in time, each situation has to be assesed as & when it is necessary.
Whilst I believe principles are admirable , they cannot be to the detriment of practical & necessary decision making, nothing is black or white , right or wrong. As the saying goes : All all it needs for Evil to exist in the world is for good men to do nothing. It is indeed at times a very close call.

It may not be about regime change but it certainly isn't entirely about preventing the use of chemical weapons as Mrs May said. There has notbeen condemnation of chemical weapons for 100years as she said in her speech. Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran and the Kurds during the Iran -Iraq war. Indeed the Uk and the west were involved in the production of these weapons
As part of Project 922, German firms helped build Iraqi chemical weapons facilities such as laboratories, bunkers, an administrative building, and first production buildings in the early 1980s under the cover of a pesticide plant. Other German firms sent 1,027 tons of precursors of mustard gas, sarin, tabun, and tear gasses in all. This work allowed Iraq to produce 150 tons of mustard agent and 60 tons of Tabun in 1983 and 1984 respectively, continuing throughout the decade. All told, 52% of Iraq's international chemical weapon equipment was of German origin. One of the contributions was a £14m chlorine plant known as "Falluja 2", built by Uhde Ltd, a UK subsidiary of a German company; the plant was given financial guarantees by the UK's Export Credits Guarantee Department despite official UK recognition of a "strong possibility" the plant would be used to make mustard gas.[4] The guarantees led to UK government payment of £300,000 to Uhde in 1990 after completion of the plant was interrupted by the first Gulf War.[4] In 1994 and 1996 three people were convicted in Germany of export offenses.
It really is so hypocritical of the UK government to suddenly develop a conscience about these things. But who knows perhaps having bombed the facilities they are planning to help rebuild them.

Spot on from your DD, granny23. Pity she's not PM.

Absolutely agree Granny23 well put by your DD. I can't think what this bombing is going to achieve apart from more casualties.

This (from my DD) says it much better than I can.

So Syria... Chemical attacks are abhorrent, lets not be unclear on that. However, the first chemical attacks in Syria were 6 years ago..... and nothing was done. Vicious attacks on civilians have continued since then, we've all seen the footage on TV.... and nothing was done... now suddenly.... there is an attack that we are supposed to care about enough that it's worth facing off against other countries to do something about it.

Let's be clear again, this is illegal. There is no UN resolution, there is no agreement from parliament, there is just Trump deciding to have a war, and May deciding on her own to follow him him.

What isn't clear... is what the effect of this bombing will be. If you take out Syrian President Assad, his main opposition is the Islamic extremists of IS.... who are also committing atrocities against the civilian population. There are something like 60 other groups fighting in Syria, variously changing sides and fighting amongst themselves too. There is no clear "side" to take there at all.

And if you look at little more closely... other things so become clear.... Mrs May is currently being swamped with the utter disaster that is Brexit. (One year to go and exactly nothing has been agreed about what happens to workers, ex-pats, any trade with anyone, any customs arrangements, passports, farming subsidies, projects still being built... etc etc... but we are already seeing the NHS struggling to find staff.... )
Look even more closely (#notinyourBBCnews) and you will see that Westminster is currently taking Holyrood to court to try and stop it from carrying out it's job in passing Scottish laws... because it doesn't like us standing up to the Brexit mess...

Meanwhile... over the Atlantic...
Mr Trump has the lowest ratings of any president ever, has a porn star scandal, investigations into personal finance, more scandal books from inside the White House, no staff that last more than a few weeks, more investigations into close aides and his own lawyer and a bucket of broken promises.... and he tried to goad China to have a bit war... they ignored him... he tried to goad North Korea to have a bit war..... they smiled and said "let's talk instead".... now in Putin, Donald has found an ego to match his own.

Am I alone in thinking that now, after 6 years of standing by while innocent people suffer.... now seems like a very handy time to get everyone behind the flag... handy to now notice crying children.... ? I wonder if May and Trump will now want to have a proper programme of resettling refugees? Or will they still think that staying home is the best place for them.

Meanwhile people here get wound up to think WW3 is on the brink, so that just as long as nothing is falling on our heads, that we will be so relieved our own children as safe that we won't care what is happening to people we don't know in a far away country, in the oil rich part of the world.

It is Iraq, all over again, simple as that. Just as illegal, just as ineffectual over all, just as many lies and spin.

What Syria needs is a concerted response from the UN, from countries working together to find solutions. It needs serious diplomatic efforts that bring people together, not unilateral action that drives division and feeds hatred.... but keeps everyone looking the other way...

You and me both lemon!!

After WW1 it was decided that nobody would use gas.
Certain things were used during the Vietnam War it’s true, awful things but I think they were not gases, and countries signed treaties in 1993 not to use anychemical agents in the future.

The missile strikes were carried out with precision, as is possible now, the Russians were warned, so any personnel could get away in time, but by wrecking the facilities ( and just by Russia/Assad/Iran now knowing the West is serious about chemical weapons) it should halt any further use.
TM said it isn’t about regime change, and it isn’t, Syria is almost back in Assad’s hands, but I expect they wanted to get it over quickly so used gas.
As for all this ludicrous talk of the UK joining Macron and Trump to turn public attention away from Brexit, or to help their chances in local elections....words ( almost) fail me.

Anthony F. Angelic
4 hrs ·

As I have repeatedly mentioned, US wars have killed 22 mil. since WWII.
Agent Orange, White Phosphorus, Napalm, etc.are names of US used chemical weapons against civilians.
HYPOCRITES !!!!!

why has no one taken the USA to task for their use of chemical weapons?
This need for war any time life gets a big difficult ofr PM 's or Presidents has to be curbed.
The USA and the UK should be cleaning up the mess in their own back yards and staying out of others.
Its something they ARE capable of as we see from the Israel /Palestine situation.They've been ignoring that particular atrocity for decades !

Maizie

I am obviously equally confused in that case.

What do you 'not understand' in my last paragraph?