Grenfell enquiry

I didn’t say “ you took the prize” niggly I just said I was sorry you had to resort to nasty comments just because we don’t agree . That’s it really .

Red tape and bureaucracy in establishing why and how 72 people died? How very terrible that is. If the Govt and K&C had followed more of the ‘red tape and bureaucracy’ maybe they wouldn’t have died. The OP specifically targeted the cost of giving the testimonies - the price of everything and the value of nothing - a man cradling his still born baby - no of course we shouldn’t spend money on allowing him to speak about this and show the photo to the enquiry. How very dare he - we’ve the security costs for the next wedding in the RF to save up for. It’s only ‘common sense’ isn’t it to hold such views?

My thoughts exactly maryeliza although I am apparently childish and worse for holding views that show the royals in anything but a rosy glow.

I resent being called heartless, maryeliza, that is not an emotion I am familiar with. My OP sprang from thoughts that perhaps this was not the right time to have those who are suffering such rawness and agony exposed in the public eye, when the enquiry is about causes. Others feel differently and have expressed that opinion without being insulting. Johnson's comment about patriotism was not reported in any particular context at the time and was believed by Boswell to refer to false patriotism. On these pages recently you seem to have displayed a great deal of vitriol and announced that you are and always will be ashamed of this country, There is always that great British option of choice; you can perhaps make a better life elsewhere, not involving quite so much bile, that will make you a more pleasant person and give you a sense of pride. Good luck with that, from the bottom of my heart.

Rosina, I understand your views . Many years ago I was part of a community which suffered a disaster, no one was allowed a voice, at the enquiry one lawyer spoke for the whole community , this was so wrong. I understand the people expressing their grief, their loss, they are not only speaking of their pain they are speaking for their loved ones who died. When someone we love dies in these circumstances it is natural to want to keep fighting for them, to be their voice.

Maryeliza are you deliberately misrepresenting my post?

Misinterpreting

The people giving the testeminies CHOSE indeed lobbied to give them ( 6 chose not to) so it’s patronising to pass judgement on their CHOICE. And what a thoroughly ridiculous point to make about my moving elsewhere - absolutely childish. There are things this country does that I think are right and proper (but that’s not the same as ‘pride’) but at the moment I think Grenfell, Windrush, austerity, the state of the public sector, the way disabled people are treated etc etc do not come not this category. Expressing strong opinions is not vitriol or bile. I’m a perfectly pleasant person ( although I couldn’t give a flying fig about anyone else’s opinion on here about that - RL opinions are what I value) who unlike some thinks the money spent on the testemonies is well spent but who wishes that money had been spent on preventing the tradgedy - oh sorry is that criticising this wonderful country <slaps hand for being so naughtty and spewing bile and vitriol>

Anniebach, I remember Aberfan, I was a young girl at that time but witnessing the black and white news footage of the village, of Cliff Michelmore's tears, and those of the adults around me when they spoke of it has never left me. There is nothing worse than to lose a child, as you know only too well, and if it might have helped in some way for those families to speak out at the time then it is a tragedy that they were not able to. If that is the majority view of the Grenfell residents then so be it - we all have coping mechanisms for what life throws at us and it seems some need to express grief publicly and feel that they speak for the lost. To clarify, I didn't mean that they should not have a voice, or that it was about 'saving' money - quite the reverse. I simply asked if a public enquiry that is there to establish cold facts was an appropriate place.

Bridgeit I do agree that making a complete rollocks of this investigation would be the final straw. Incidentally and with reference to your last post, I have said my last words regarding misinterpretation and unnecessary unpleasantness.
It is frustrating when a really enjoyable and positive forum for discussion becomes only one step removed from 'Ner Ner',

If you don't think the enquiry is an appropriate place Rosina where should they "express their grief publicly"? And they have chosen to do this. They are the people suffering, they speak for those who can no longer speak for themselves. It is their decision to speak and to question their right to do so is to treat them in exactly the way they have already been treated. They don't matter, their housing doesn't need to be safe, they should not have a voice. It all stems from the same source.

Maybe as a result of this inquiry we will hear less of the 'health and safety gone mad' type stupid comments. I have never understood why anyone should have an issue with workplaces being safe, with the idea that one should be able to go to work and then come home again in the same state of health.

Trisher please do not attribute to me things that I have not said - I have not for a moment questioned the right to publicly express grief and if you read my post above you will see that I said if they have chosen to do this then so be it. I have never suggested that people 'don't matter', or suggested it would 'save money' - quite the contrary. I said in my OP that if the enquiry were not prolonged it might release funds to assist those who have lost everything and for practical help all round. I suggested spending money, not saving it. There are many ways to express emotion and remember those who have died, both verbally at services and in the form of memorials, gardens, and so forth. If Grenfell residents choose not to speak at the enquiry - and some have I understand - then their loss is not diminished, and absolutely nobody involved is silenced for ever because of the format of a public enquiry.

Yes I agree with you GillT57 but until you have seen the HSE in action...........

Sometimes, just sometimes there really isn't any one person to blame. Sometimes with the best will in the world things can go horribly wrong.

When it all comes down to it, I don't know who is to blame for the deaths at Grenfell ? The LA? The contractor? The fire brigade?

Watching the harrowing program last night about the Manchester Arena bomb made me see things in a different light. Sometimes things are not quite what they first seem. A whole other thread perhaps? but whilst the bomb was the direct cause it was not necessarily the bomb that killed some people as much as the failure to help them while they lay there bleeding to death.

Going back to Grenfell, it appears that the incorrect evacuation (or not) instructions have led to more deaths ?

Rosina, have given it more thought. Two weeks of expressing grief will not affect the outcome of the enquiry, this must be reached by facts not emotions of the bereaved . So I agree with you.

gilly I think the issue may well turn out to be that if the cladding had been the right type and installed correctly, which was the understandable assumption, then the advice to stay put would have been correct

Yes maryeliza I suppose that's true. But the problem remains who knew (if indeed anyone did) that the cladding was incorrect? Was someone (knowingly) cutting corners?

I guess that’s what we might hopefully find out with the enquiry gilly - what no one is disputing is that the residents raised concerns about fire safety in general and their concerns were ignored.There will be a game of ‘pass the blame’ that’s for sure

It isn't about the outcome Anniebach it is about the process- Justice must not only be done it must be seen to be done.

Rosina the tone of your posts consistently decries the grief of the Grenfell survivors and the relatives of the dead who have chosen to speak. You may believe that more money should be spent in different areas but that is seperate from the enquiry and should remain so.
I ask again where else can they speak to the media and the wider public? A memorial garden may be somewhere to remember but it never expresses individual grief.

Yes Trisher, but I do not think expressing grief affects anything in this enquiry. Full facts are needed to bring justice and where fault is found no protection given to those at fault, and I do speak from experience , when fault was found but the the person at fault was protected and kept his job.

The Judge thinks the testimonials do help the enquiry and I think he’s absolutely right

Here are his words again

Although what we shall hear and see over the coming days may be described as memorials, they are in truth much more than that; they are an integral part of the evidence before the inquiry. They will remind us of its fundamental purpose and the reason why it is so
important that the truth be laid bare. Only by achieving that goal can we ensure justice for the living and a lasting tribute to the dead”

Anniebach thank you, that was part of my point. Trisha for just one example the Americans have remembered the World Trade Centre and kept the memory of those who died with memorials, programmes and services yearly. People have been able to express grief among those who truly understand, and while I am not suggesting this is what is needed today in this country, it is an example of what people find a degree of comfort in. I have absolutely not 'decried the grief of the Grenfell survivors' - please read what I have written, not what you think I have written.

Surely no one needs reminded of the reason for this enquiry. Given the flack this man has had before even the enquiry started little wonder his isn’t going to kick all that off again.