Regret it Brexit Part 2

That's because it won't!

The Leavers in 2016 tried to present themselves as patriots. Did they ever tell the voters that brexit might destroy the United Kingdom?

Spot on Nigglynellie.

MaizieD Sat 09-Jun-18 18:23:59

" As I understand it, the 'Scottish debt' is a matter of Treasury dictated calculations on figures that are, in some cases, hypotheses rather than fact."

The post was not about the Scottish debt, it was about not being allowed to leave the EU. However since it was mentioned as an example of making things easy, should the Scots decide to leave the UK, and you claim the debt is "hypotheses rather than fact", it would be good to have some foundation for what you say on this.

GillT57 Sat 09-Jun-18 18:40:28
"I agree with Nigglynellie, if that is what the majority of Scots want then we should not stand in their way."

Your point is? I repeat that I agree with Nigglynellie, that if the majority of Scots want to leave the UK then we should not stand in their way.

I think we're bending over backwards to be as conciliatory as possible. We realise we can't cherry pick, and have not sought to do so. It will be interesting to see what happens over Gallileo? If we are to be a excluded, I don't think that the EU can expect to go on using our overseas territories?! Cherry picking?!!!
I think it's quite alarming that we appear to be embroiled in an organisation from which there is virtually no let out. Tbh back in c1975, if I or DH had known then what we know now we wouldn't even have contemplated voting to stay in the Common Market! We would have listened to Tony Benn, but we didn't and hindsight is a wonderful thing!!

The rules of the EU are clear. We can’t have the benefits without the obligations. Simples. We can’t cherry pick. The EU aren’t deliberately making life difficult for us. We are shooting ourself in the foot by demanding special treatment.

I agree with Nigglynellie, if that is what the majority of Scots want then we should not stand in their way. but the referendum showed that the majority of Scots did not want to leave the Union, Allygran. Is your opinion based upon what you hear/read/think/suppose? If it is it is a valid opinion. So is mine that the majority of voters, despite the result of the Brexit referendum, in fact do not wish to leave the EU. If you have accepted the validity of one referendum, you should accept the result of the other, surely?If you think one referendum should and could be ignored, then so can the other.

MaizieD. The Scottish debt is a matter of record, not a matter of opinion.

As I understand it, the 'Scottish debt' is a matter of Treasury dictated calculations on figures that are, in some cases, hypotheses rather than fact.

I'd find it ironic if you were to quote them at me when Treasury figures for the effects of Brexit are dismissed as 'project fear'.

MaizieD Sat 09-Jun-18 18:18:47

You have just confirmed in what you posted that it is impossible to leave the EU. If one can't leave on ones own terms then we are imprisoned in the system.

MaizieD. Frankly comparing what crystaltipps has said and my response to what you call "British Enslavement" is frankly ridiculous, and not worthy of a response. Keep to the thread.
All slavery of any description is completely and utterly unacceptable. How dare you disrespect modern slavery of all types subjugating it to another form of equally unacceptable slavery of people, in another time . All slavery of any era is wrong.

The terms for leaving should be that we are not required to be in the single market, or in a restrictive customs union.

In which case we shouldn't be under the illusion that we can get the same benefits from the EU as a third country that we enjoy as being part of it. If anyone thinks we can enjoy them without observing the 'four pillars' they are just seriously delusional.

Of course it would be easy for NI to stay in the EU as part of Eire, except for the change of currency nothing much would alter, but for Scotland, starting as a new country, it could be quite difficult. A hard border with England for a start?!! Not sure about keeping the £ as presumably they would still be tied to the Bank of England and all that entails when surely the whole idea of independence is to get away from that! Presumably the end game is to use the Euro? Can't quite understand wanting to embrace the EU when you want independence, which surely means running your own affairs without interference from another party?!! But of course any of this depends on the will of the people concerned and nothing to do with what I want!

alygran modern history starts in the 16th century, but I won’t bore you with going that far back - 20th c examples - Ireland Easter uprising 1916, Kenya- Mau Mau uprising, division of India and Pakistan, Palestine, Cyprus just off top of my head. Just saying Britain hasn’t got a squeaky clean history, much wealth has been built on exploiting empire. Now we don’t have an Empire to exploit, we aren’t going to be that significant a world player post Brexit. All those saying we were ok before in the 1950s should realise we weren’t actually on our own then.

MaizieD. The Scottish debt is a matter of record, not a matter of opinion.

I am sure if I try really hard after my evening meal I will be able to find it.

Not good as we've discovered by our own adventure into the EU.

Comparing our experience of the EU with British enslavement of 'subject people' of the British Empire is ridiculous and frankly disrespectful to those who experienced real slavery. The EU is a union of free peoples in which we have played a key role. To characterise our involvement as 'slavery' is rabble rousing meaningless rhetoric.

Crystaltipps. You say "it isn't impossible to leave the EU".

The evidence suggest's that the EU is doing everything in it's power to stop Britain from leaving. Every route Britains tries in negotiation leads back to single market and customs union. Isn't that what all the negotiation difficulties are about the four pillars of the EU? The EU is an incestous and formed State, and in recent months I have started to see similarities to another, although religious based deception based on false images and a man who in that instance claimed to be a prophet of God. In the case of the founding "father" (even the term smacks at something undemocratic) designed the structure to tie people in.

Britain is the first to challenge the hold that the EU has over it's "citizens" yes we are citizens of the EU....by stealth. The EU as Nigglynellie say in my view correctly is making it virtually impossible for us to leave. The terms for leaving should be that we are not required to be in the single market, or in a restrictive customs union. But those avenues of freedom are being constantly blocked and a negative propaganda campaign has been launched to scare people into believing it will be easier to stay put.

If that is not holding it's citizen's as prisoners when they want to leave, I don't know what is.

The problems of paying back the Scottish debt to the UK no doubt can be worked out, if that is the way the majority in Scotland want to go.

I don't think that the Scots would acknowledge that they owe any debt to the UK. Particularly as Scottish oil revenue was squandered in tax cuts by the Thatcher government.

(Where's Paddyann when you need her )

If the people of Wales wanted independence from England, again we would never hold them against their will. As for our once great nation! It was partly built on the backs of people who were effectively enslaved, however benignly, by a foreign country! Not good as we've discovered by our own adventure into the EU. We shall be fine after Brexit to the envy of those poor countries still inside this dictatorship, Greece, Italy, Spain to name but three.

crystaltipps can you expand on "modern history suggests we have "held people against their will", which has ended in armed struggle?

It is interesting that SNP have said that they want to join the EU but stay out of the Euro and continue using the £. Not quite so simple as that. It is so scary that the SNP have no understanding of the complexity and the dangers of being in the EU as a very small Country. The Scot's I know will never go for it. The future is expansive and not tied to a single currency. The Eurozone is collapsing. Hence Nicola Sturgeon's comments about wanting to stick with our safer and stronger £. It would not be automatic or as simple as she seems to make it sound.
I agree with Nigglynellie, if that is what the majority of Scots want then we should not stand in their way.
The problems of paying back the Scottish debt to the UK no doubt can be worked out, if that is the way the majority in Scotland want to go.

Modern history suggests we have “held people against their will” which has ended in armed struggles. Maybe lessons have been learned, but we shouldn’t feel smug or superior to others in this regard. Of course it isn’t impossible to leave the EU, but we will be the poorer for it.

Thank you Allygran1?

nigglynellie Sat 09-Jun-18 16:38:18

So much in agreement with you on this Nigglienellie. So well put.

It is not impossible to leave the EU if you want to become a poor, isolated, marginalised remnant of the great country we once were.

Brexit would diminish us, most of the world is already laughing at us for having had such a stupid vote, and if NI and Scotland went their own way, what used to be The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would be reduced to England and Wales.

I wonder how long it would be for people in Wales to decide they no longer wanted to be Little Englanders?