Regret it Brexit Part 2

We can now clearly see that Brexit of any sort, let alone the "jump of a cliff" no-deal road to armageddon, is too horrendous to contemplate.

There may be a handful of diehard brexiters who will never agree that they were very wrong, but we should not be bullied by this travesty of democracy into condemning the lives of our children and grandchildren .

varian Sun 03-Jun-18 15:05:32
"A shortage of food, petrol and medicine would grip the UK within weeks of the UK leaving the EU without a deal, according to secret warnings drawn up in Whitehall. According to the Sunday Times, civil servants have put together three scenarios for a ‘no deal’ Brexit – mild, severe and ‘armageddon’"

Varian. Anyone who has worked for a large organisation that is "managing change", or forward planning, has to do contingency planning. It would astonish me if the Government had not done this.

The worst and best scenario's are always imagined and considered, with the worst being the most difficult because of unknown factors and consequences, and must always look extreme.

Good to know that (as one would expect) this contingency planning is in place. Of course as a remainer you will take the pessimistic view, and not the reality of managing change as we Brexit with contingency planning being part of that process. Excellent management.

Crystaltipps No I don't either have great faith or believe that all MP's are in full agreement. The point I am making is that the Labour Party candidates stood on a Pro Brexit mandate. Having got into Parliament on that mandate the party line is Pro Brexit and they should honour the party mandate promise to support Brexit. Anything else is dishonest.

So I take it that you are a remain voters from what you say. That's fine. The majority voted leave on two occasions and if anyone thought it would be easy to get out of the clutches of the EU then they are mistaken. It took us since at least 1973 and before that really, to get ensnared by stealth, so two years to get out is good.

As a remainer naturally you will look for ways to support your own belief that we should remain in a failing system. As a Leave voter I will support the extraction process of Brexit.

There is not a lot more that can be said, other than to say the Conservative Government is fulfilling the mandate promises to the electorate to leave the EU. The EU is making that process difficult. Lots going on there, their attitude will change because Italy is going to bring the EU down eventually and threaten the eurozone. When one goes the lot will go, with perhaps protectionism in Germany.

No one with any idea of the scale of Brexit would have said it will be "plain sailing", however some of us are approaching it with a clear realistic understanding of the complexity and optimistic and exciting views of the future and other are not.

My view is, that Labour will fulfil their mandate promise to the Labour voters and support the Conservative Government as they fulfil their promise to Brexit.

The consequences on democracy, if either of these two main party's do not honour their mandates of the General Election ,is too horrendous to contemplate.

This is a test for British democracy.

Allygran you have great faith that all MPs are in complete agreement with the party line. Many are not. With numerous defeats in the House of Lords as well as Tory Rebels on both sides of the argument, plus the Labour Party being divided on the issue, their is far from unanimity in the HoC.
they are keeping their promise and steering this Nation through Brexit. though some would see it as steering down sh*t creek without a paddle. - its hardly plain sailing for the hapless crew that is the government. Many of the problems are of their own making.
The latest on the NI border
Back to the drawing board as David Davis admits Irish border plan won't work
His latest plan sank without trace, about 12 hours after being floated
www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/davis-u-turn-leaves-brexiteers-irish-border-plan-in-crisis-zvm2v792n
David Davis has conceded that surveillance technology cannot be used to police the Northern Ireland border
in a major climbdown that leaves Brexiteers’ favoured customs plan in disarray.
Pressure from the Police Service of Northern Ireland and concerns over civil liberties mean that
a key part of the Brexit secretary’s blueprint to deal with the border has had to go back to the drawing board
— with a crucial EU summit less than four weeks away.
Mr Davis is understood to have indicated this week that he would not push for solutions that involved monitoring or surveillance to track goods.
This could have included asking businesses that regularly trade across the UK border to install British government smartphone tracking apps
Uk govt & smart apps - what could go wrong ?

A shortage of food, petrol and medicine would grip the UK within weeks of the UK leaving the EU without a deal, according to secret warnings drawn up in Whitehall. According to the Sunday Times, civil servants have put together three scenarios for a ‘no deal’ Brexit – mild, severe and ‘armageddon’

Worryingly, the warnings over supermarkets running out of food within days and petrol shortages hitting within weeks come from the ‘severe’ model – not the most apocalyptic analysis. A source told the Sunday Times: “In the second scenario, not even the worst, the port of Dover will collapse on day one. The supermarkets in Cornwall and Scotland will run out of food within a couple of days, and hospitals will run out of medicines within two weeks. The UK would have to charter aircraft or enlist the military to move supplies to the furthest corners of the country. You would have to medevac medicine into Britain, and at the end of week two we would be running out of petrol as well.”

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/no-deal-brexit-food-shortages_uk_5b13a7f7e4b02143b7cd1b27?guccounter=1

How irresponsible to even suggest that when "the Deal" is known, a "meaningful vote would be a choice of "Deal or No Deal" where "No Deal" could mean such a disaster. The "meaningful vote should be between "the Deal" and the sensinble option of Remaining in the EU. No doubt the brexiteers will dismiss this as "fake news". They may decide to take the risk, but they are utterly wrong to cendemn us to this armageddon.

Hi Crystaltipps sorry should have said. The Conservative candidates stood for election or re-election at the General Election based on amongst other things Pro Brexit mandate.

They are fulfilling that promise and we are Brexiting. The details of that are complex and multiple enormous uncoupling from the EU. So no they are keeping their promise and steering this Nation through Brexit.

Hi Crystaltipps

When one votes in a Parliamentary General Election, your candidate stands on the Party manifesto. Your candidate as all other candidates have to stand for election or re-election on that Party mandate. In the case of Labour that mandate included Pro Brexit. I am sure you would have read the Labour mandate (the promises).

If your candidate was anti Brexit and the Labour party mandate was Pro Brexit, then your candidate is the one that mislead you. Not the Labour Party, their mandate was clear.

mostlyharmless Sun 03-Jun-18 10:16:23
Government report on the consequences of no deal Brexit reported in The Sunday Times.

Anyone who has worked for a large organisation that is "managing change", or forward planning, has to do contingency planning. It would astonish me if the Government had not done this. The worst and best scenario's are always imagined and considered, with the worst being the most difficult because of unknown factors and consequences, and must always look extreme.

Hospitals, have the same sort of contingency plans, as do all other large organisations or institutions.. A Nation will have lots of contingency plans. I imagine they have one for epidemics, a worst scenario would be that we would for a start need thousands of coffins. What sort of funeral services would be in operation if any, what stress on the Coroners Officers for autopsy's, issuing death certificates etc, when thousands of dead a day are having to be disposed of. How do you reconcile religious beliefs, enforce the law with regard to deaths with a National emergency of that scale and so on and so on. There will always be worst scenario plans and rightly so. Every department of Government will have contingency emergency plans.

That's why once the sensationalisation of this report is over. Most people will know exactly what this is. Excellent to know that this is in place.

I voted for my parliamentary candidate on the basis that they were anti Brexit. I did not vote for Corbyn, he wasn’t on my ballot paper. This government has U turned on their manifesto 10 times so far - this makes them big liars no?

MaizieD Fri 01-Jun-18 17:44:44
"you have to be blinkered or naive to believe that people voted for Corbyn on the strength of his Brexit stance. They voted for the LP because it wasn't the tory party.
If people perceive the LP to be as pro-Brexit as the tory party then voting on the Brexit issue becomes irrelevant."

Md I believe that basically and largely the Labour Party mandate on which all Labour candidates stood for re-election or election at the General Election was believed by those who voted Labour. If the core promises are lies, then what does that say to the electorate who voted based on those promises? The electorate remember and thank goodness they are not as blinkered or naive.

We, the electorate know a promise and we know when that promise is broken it changes into a lie. We also know when we have been "had" and that will not be forgiven. Politicians know this.

The Labour voters did vote on the entire mandate or they would have voted for another Party such as the Lib Dems or Greens etc, who had a clear remain mandate at the General Election.

After all there were two major Party's at the General Election who stood on a Pro Brexit mandate. So the choice for the Labour voter was not Labour or Conservative on Pro Brexit promises. It was neither if they wanted an anti Brexit Government or Opposition.

So I do "believe that people voted for Corbyn on the strength of his Brexit stance" as part of the promises in the Labour Party mandate at the General Election.

Now they want the Labour Oppostion to deliver on supporting Pro Brexit.

Allygran1 Sun 03-Jun-18 00:33:46
"The Referendum advised, leave the EU by majority vote. The General Election, the two major political party's stood on a Brexit mandate. All members of Parliament currently are therefore in the Commons because their party stood on a Brexit leave mandate."

"Not Libdems, SNP or Green Party. Quite a lot of MPs in those parties."

I agree. Just:
"The two major political party's." Not all members of Parliament.

All Labour Party MP's stood on the Labour Party mandate for election or re-election part of that mandate was a Pro Brexit pledge.

Gerispringer Fri 01-Jun-18 17:36:45
"The LP do not have to stick to their manifesto as they aren’t in government to carry it out".

So Geri, have I got this right? You are saying that it's acceptable to ask people to vote for the Labour Party candidates, based on pledges (promises) to the electorate at any election, in this case the General Election, then if you don't get the majority and become the "opposition", just don't carry out the mandate on which the people voted for you! In this case the Labour Party MP's all re-elected or elected on a mandate that included a Pro Brexit pledge!

Don’t worry - it will be dismissed as scaremongering - even if it is their own report!

Government report on the consequences of no deal Brexit reported in The Sunday Times.

Britain would be hit with shortages of medicine, fuel and food within a fortnight if the UK tries to leave the European Union without a deal, according to a Doomsday Brexit scenario drawn up by senior civil servants for David Davis.

Whitehall has begun contingency planning for the port of Dover to collapse “on day one” if Britain crashes out of the EU, leading to critical shortages of supplies.

All members of Parliament currently are therefore in the Commons because their party stood on a Brexit leave mandate.
Not Libdems, SNP or Green Party. Quite a lot of MPs in those parties. Labour was lukewarm.
A second referendum on Brexit was one of Libdems’ major policies last year. The Green Party and SNP wanted a referendum on the final deal.

Corbyn is sticking to what he believes about the EU, that it’s no good at all for the UK.In this ( and only this) I agree with him.Mrs May was probably undecided but supported Cameron on Remain.
Good for all politicians who respected the outcome of the referendum and got on with it.

All members of parliament did not stand on a Brexit mandate. Lib Dem’s, SNPs.?People voted for individual constituency MPs, many of whom from all parties, oppose Brexit, and even more who do not approve of the government’s mishandling of the process. To pretend there is consensus in the HoC is rather simplistic.

The Referendum advised, leave the EU by majority vote. The General Election, the two major political party's stood on a Brexit mandate. All members of Parliament currently are therefore in the Commons because their party stood on a Brexit leave mandate.

Yes you’re right Varian.
I think they are starting to see sense.
As a Labour Party member for nearly thirty years I feel helpless.

In 2016 both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn behaved in a very similar way. They were both ostensibly in the Remain camp, but kept their heads down, hardly ever speaking in public at all.

Then when Leave campaign, based on lies, won by a narrow majority, both just caved in to the brexiters in their parties.

Theresa May at least had the excuse that her party had a majority for Leave, but Corbyn's party had a clear Remain majority at every level - MPs, members and voters. So why on earth did Corbyn let all these people down by feebly following the Daily Mail agenda?????

Why is it only now that the pro-REmain faction of the Labour Party (which is after all the majority) starting to make its voice heard???

To me it is really important that GNetters who are Labour Party supporters address this question.

I am not a Labour voter. I am a Liberal Democrat and our party has always been clear about where we stand. We want to remain in the EU. Now there are a minority of LibDem supporters who voted Leave, but the clear majority supported Remain and now campaign for a meaningful vote on Parliament and/or a peoples' vote when the terms of the deal are known. At that point the choice should be between the deal which has been negotiated or the status quo - revoking Article 50, which we are legally entitled to do, and remaining in the EU as other EU nations would welcome that decision.

There are strong divisions of opinion on the GN News and Politics forum - divisions between right and left, between Daily Mail readers and Guardian readers, divisions between Leavers and Remainers, but in the last few years it has struck me quite forcibly that the most bitter divisions seem to be between the pro-Corbyn and anti-Corbyn factions in the Labour Party. This may be no worse than the divisions in the Tory Party, but it has got in the way of really effective opposition to this dreadful government which we desperately need.

he seems to be keeping his word to the people who voted himself and his MP's back into Parliament on the pledge of a pro Brexit stance.

you have to be blinkered or naive to believe that people voted for Corbyn on the strength of his Brexit stance. They voted for the LP because it wasn't the tory party.

If people perceive the LP to be as pro-Brexit as the tory party then voting on the Brexit issue becomes irrelevant.

What then matters is what the party proposes to do for the day to day running of the country. Voters clearly preferred the LP's manifesto in sufficient numbers to deny May the majority she though she would get.

The LP do not have to stick to their manifesto as they aren’t in government to carry it out. The GE was fought on lots of issues such as transport, nhs etc May claimed it was to give strong and stable government and we all know how well that turned out, The job of the opposition is to oppose the government and it’s about time the LP made the most of the opportunities presented by the weak incumbents. I voted for a local MP not a party leader. She stood on a platform to oppose Brexit, fight for the nhs and other policies. The GE wasn’t a referendum it was fought on a whole raft of issues.

Varian Corbyn and his MP's stood for election or re-election on a Pro Brexit mandate. Much as I do not support Corbyns politics he seems to be keeping his word to the people who voted himself and his MP's back into Parliament on the pledge of a pro Brexit stance.

A grassroots group of Jeremy Corbyn supporters and trade unions is to launch a major UK speaking tour, billed as the leftwing campaign to remain in the EU. The Left Against Brexit tour will attempt to persuade Corbyn and his allies of the leftwing case for a pro-EU position and will argue that the party can reap electoral benefits from a shift.

Speakers on the summer tour of British cities will include Manuel Cortes, the general secretary of the transport union TSSA, Michael Chessum, who was on Momentum’s first steering committee, the Labour MEP Julie Ward, the former shadow minister Catherine West, and the co-leader of the Green Party, Caroline Lucas.

Organisers will argue that a Corbyn-led programme of economic reform would be hampered by a damaging departure from the EU, threatening jobs and investment.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/01/leftwingers-launch-campaign-to-shift-labour-position-on-brexit

In my view this is long overdue. Corbyn has allowed himself to be bullied by the brexiters for far too long. Although he says he voted to Remain, he has been accused of being a "closet leaver". It is about time he represented the views of the majority of his party's MPs, members and supporters.