Brexit

No likey, no looky.
Quite, petra

I am that anyone would complain - just skip!! After all, as I pointed out previously on one thread or another (they tend to all blend into one after a while) the length of the thread depends on the number of posts, not the length.

If it is tltr - then don't read
and Carry On Regardless

Thanks for posting Fennel,good to know it’s not just me.?

Me too Bridgeit
I asked that on another thread - can't remember which.

We don't allow trollhunting on Gransnet. If you are concerned about a particular poster or post please report it to us.

Looking is fine,but a bit of strain on the eyes after awhile
As I keep saying it is an Opinions forum, not a cut & paste of so many articles,which we are all at liberty to look for ourselves, why not just post a link.

MargaretX
No likey, no looky.

Very good & sensible, & helpful post Varian,
Thank you & I hope mine eventually got through ?

I can see why you say that because there is one poster who attempts to dominate all the brexit threads on GN be posting frequent and lengthy cut-and -pastes.

However it is not always bad to quote something which is relevant or give links.

Perhaps GNHQ could consider limiting the length of these interminable cut-and-pastes.

This thread is now impossible. I think that posts should be restricted to what the poster writes herself/himself.

Iamnotarobot Thu 16-Aug-18 16:48:22

Please provide a link to this article. Thanks

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ally really interesting stuff about Corbyn and Momentum,
What the Labour Party has come to!

Ah well, if the EU don’t want our billions then so be it.

Key Brexit dates- update

Unfortunately the EU has surmised that the U.K. will have very little or nothing to present to the EU in September.

It has decided to simply give 5 minutes to May to confirm that fact.

Still no apology for the “fake news” Ali G?
You often complain that others post fake news.

Whew ally! Scary stuff indeed. You have certainly given me food for thought and thank you so much for going to the trouble to unearth all this valuable information. If only the Conservatives could pull themselves together to prevent us all sleep walking into this potential nightmare. But then God knows what the real story there is? Frankly, I dread to think as I think all we're seeing here is just the tip of the iceberg of?!!!

Telegraph 15/08/2018
Report on meeting with Grayling and Road Haulage Association in Westminster

Concern that Gayling has no discernible plan for post-brexit

“Mr Hopper, a member of the Road Haulage Association, with 40 years experience said that he and his collegues attempted to warn Grayling of several potentially catastrophic consequences of crashing out of the EU. Haulage chiefs raised concerns at the government proposals of creating a giant lorry park in Dover to prevent tailbacks on the M20. Grayling was told that it would only be any use for non-commercial trade, and would fill up in half a day.

It is clear said the RHA that Grayling has no idea how their business works.

Iamnotarobot
Are you sure?

Key Brexit Dates

September 20th 2018
Summit in Salzburg- possible Brexit showdown.

October 18-19 2018.
EU summit- aim for the divorce deal to be signed off

End2018/2019
EO and U.K. parliaments vote on the sign off deal

March 29 2019
U.K. leaves the EU

January 2021
Transition ends.

Fennel Jeremy Corbyn did campaign for remain before the referendum, albeit very half-heartedly.

Nigglynellie this is interesting from Business insider about Momentum relationship with Corbyn and both Corbyn's and Momentums relationship with the Labour Party.

All copy and paste no 'cuts':

Most surprisingly, Corbyn also has few personal connections to Momentum, the 60,000-strong left-wing pressure group that was built out of his leadership election campaign, Business Insider was told by sources within the group^^This will come as a shock to observers of the party. Most people inside Labour think that Momentum is Corbyn’s powerbase. Many MPs believe that Momentum’s members in their constituency parties will deselect them if they show their disloyalty to Corbyn. They live in fear of Corbyn’s main strength, the majority of members who put him in power, and their strength inside Momentum. While all this is true, our sources also told us that Corbyn rarely talks directly to the leaders of Momentum, and they have only fleeting communications with him.

Business Insider spent three months interviewing multiple members of the Labour party and Momentum. We talked to MPs, activists, party officials, Westminster workers, and ordinary voters. Most of them declined to talk on the record, or asked that we not publish their names. Corbyn’s office declined repeated requests for comment^^Speaking privately, however, they gave us the inside story on the rise of Corbyn, how his support base was built, and how Momentum now operates in relation to Corbyn and the party.
Two activists joined Craven early on to help run Red Labour: Ben Sellers and Max Shanly.
Sellers, 43, is a former member of Militant, the hard-left grouping that was expelled from the Labour party in the 1980s. He runs a socialist bookshop in Durham where he is studying for his PhD. The motto of The People's Bookshop, on Twitter, is “Selling old books to new radicals and new books to old radicals or something like that.” A Labour source described Sellers as "a bit full of himself" given his limited political achievements — at least until the Corbyn election.
Shanly, 26, is a brusque young socialist from Epsom in Surrey, who sits on the Labour Party youth wing’s National Committee. During his time as prominent member of Oxford University Labour Club, Shanly forged links with most of the key figures on Labour’s left. He is not sympathetic to Labour’s moderate MPs or the party they built. He told a socialist blog in July 2015, “The Labour left will have to act swiftly and I am afraid brutally in many cases. The PLP [Parliamentary Labour Party] will have to be brought into line, some members of party staff will need to be pointed towards the exit, and the entire party structures would, in my opinion, need to undergo a comprehensive and thorough review.”
Corbyn’s friend Jon Lansman was one of the most important architects of Corbyn’s victory^^He was one of only two registered directors of “Jeremy Corbyn Campaign 2015 (Supporters) Ltd.”, the other was Simon Fletcher — who was soon to become Corbyn’s chief of staff. The company was set up to collect Corbyn’s campaign funding and support data and has since changed its name to Momentum Campaign (Services) Ltd.

In the 1970s, Lansman was also instrumental in persuading the party to introduce “mandatory reselection,” a policy which gave Constituency Labour Party branches the power to “deselect” their MPs if those MPs displeased them. Previously, once an MP had secured his or her seat, they could reasonably expect to remain an MP for life, or until they lost the seat at a general election.
Deselection was heavily favoured by Militant, a Marxist group that successfully (and covertly) infiltrated the Labour Party in the 1970s and 1980s. Militant succeeded largely because its people were willing to do the activist work that most party members can’t be bothered with — volunteering to be branch secretaries and treasurers, attending committees and meetings, all the boring stuff that keeps constituency parties running. Militant was a party within a party, loyal to itself, and not the Labour party it was trying to infest.
By the mid-1980s, Militant was so embedded in Labour that it managed to get four of its members selected as MPs, and it took control of the entire Liverpool city council.
One of Militant’s big policy successes was deselection.

Unsurprisingly, this new power was quickly abused and MPs were deselected for their political views, even if they were popular with voters, and not because they were incompetent. There was a massive — and successful — effort by former Labour leader Neil Kinnock to kick Militant out of the party and to change the deselection process.
Because members of Militant kept their affiliation a secret to evade Kinnock’s witch-hunt, it is not clear whether Lansman was an actual Militant member or not. But he clearly sympathised with many of the group’s policies. And the fact that a champion of deselection now controls Corbyn’s powerbase within the party terrifies moderate Labour MPs^.

Led by Lansman, they decided to try and bring all of the threads of the Corbyn movement together, and began sending off emails to everyone who been involved in the campaign.
The next order of business was to come up with a name. A list of potential names was drawn up, and after quick vote one was chosen. But some people though the name was terrible. (Our sources declined to tell us what the rejected name was.) So, after some intense lobbying a compromise was reached and “Momentum” was chosen instead.
Things moved quickly and soon Jeremy Corbyn Campaign 2015 (Services) had its name changed to Momentum Campaign (Services) Limited.

It also cannot be understated how at odds many of the Corbyn T-shirt wearing, newly signed up Labour members are with the leadership of Momentum^^Following the mess over Momentum's initial role, the organisation elected a eight-member national steering committee. Lansman is one of them, and at least five others hold the kind of extreme left beliefs that represent the worst fears many people have about Momentum. They are:
•Christine Shawcroft was suspended from the Labour Party last year after trying to defend the corrupt, Islamic-extremist-linked mayor of Tower Hamlets Lutfur Rahman.
•Marsha-Jane Thompson, who worked with Ben Sellers on Corbyn's leadership social media campaign, was sentenced to 100 hours community service after being charged with electoral fraud.
•Michael Chessum was a supporter of the 2010 student riots that led to the Conservative Party's campaign headquarters being smashed up. Also, when he was president of the University of London Union, he banned students and staff from representing the union at Remembrance Day ceremonies, likening remembrance events to "murderers holding special funerals for their victims".
•Cecile Wright claimed that a rioter who smashed up shops during the 2011 Nottingham riots were targeting the police because of the “neo-liberal economic and social policies applied over the last 30 years”.
•Jill Mountford is a member of the Alliance for Workers’ Liberty (AWL) — a Trotskyite sect. She was recently kicked out of the Labour Party because of this. In 2010 she stood as an AWL parliamentary candidate against Labour's interim leader Harriet Harman. Mountford's campaign attacked Harman for being a "chemically pure Blairite apparatchik, personally responsible for many of the government’s attacks on the working class."
Labour MPs now live in fear or ignorance
Among Corbyn’s 231 MPs in parliament — of which about 217 did not vote for him — Momentum is regarded with equal amounts of fear and ignorance. Fear that Momentum is simply a vehicle for vengeful Militant activists (or worse) to re-enter the party and deselect them. And ignorance because, after 20 years of Blairism, they had simply stopped paying attention to what was going on on the left.

^“It’s like a shadow head office operation that has no official links to the party structure.^”
A fear that Labour MPs often articulate privately is that Momentum has some sort of nefarious access to Corbyn and the leader’s office in the Norman Shaw building. “I just don’t know who’s going in and out of there,” this MP says.
A source from Labour’s head office worries that Momentum is some sort of shadow operation that could usurp or replace the actual Labour party. “No one knows how Momentum works in relation to leaders office... it’s like a shadow head office operation that has no official links to the party structure.”
To understand why these sort of rumours take hold, you have to understand just how weird it is that after his speech to Labour staffers at head office, Corbyn disappeared from Brewer’s Green and now uses only the opposition leader’s office in Norman Shaw. He simply does not show up inside Brewer’s Green, even though that is the Labour HQ, and the place with the staff, resources and infrastructure that officially runs the party.
When Harriet Harman was acting leader, after Miliband resigned but before Corbyn was elected, she had a desk in the middle of Labour’s head office, which at the time was a huge, open-plan space. Staff could see everyone who spoke with her. ^Anyone could go up to her desk to ask her something, if they wanted to (although most did not).
Corbyn’s attitude is the complete opposite of that — and it just infuriates people^.
Corbyn does not use Harman’s old desk. He only uses the Norman Shaw office. To see Corbyn personally a Labour staffer must take a 15-minute walk from Brewer’s Green, past Westminster Abbey, past the statue of Winston Churchill, past the Supreme Court, through a mad crowd of tourists looking at Big Ben, to the Portcullis House administrative area.

The problem with the idea that Corbyn is secretly running the Labour party in cahoots with Momentum, is that it’s wrong.
Despite the fact that Lansman is Corbyn’s friend, despite the fact that Corbyn’s chief of staff used to be one of Momentum’s directors, and despite the fact that Momentum is Corbyn’s greatest asset, Corbyn has almost no direct dealings with the organisation, sources tell Business Insider.
In fact, communication between Momentum and Corbyn is poor. When asked about why it was so difficult to communicate with the leader’s office, our source said words to the effect of^: "Tell me about it, it's a complete shambles over there. I have to use a backchannel to contact them. ^I have to talk to my friend who passes on messages for me.^"
Senior staff at Momentum have to use their own backchannels to talk to Corbyn, the same way MPs do. "We're not a special project of the leader's office," a Momentum source emphasises.
He rarely deals directly with the official Labour party or Momentum. His MPs all voted against him and either don’t know what’s going on with their leader’s new power base or live in fear of deselection. He has made no overtures to the Blairite wing of the party, tossed them no consolation bones to keep them compliant. His deputy leader, Tom Watson, was elected separately, thus has his own power base, and at times has publicly clashed with Corbyn without suffering consequences. Momentum itself owes Corbyn no guarantee of lifelong loyalty. It may be a broad left coalition, but it is composed of people who have spent decades waging spiteful sectarian wars with each other over the obscurata of “real” socialism.
And, perhaps most personally of all for Corbyn, Tony Benn’s son, MP Hilary Benn, split with him on the House of Commons vote over military action in Syria. The Commons voted in favour of action, and 66 Labour MPs voted with the Conservatives. Corbyn began his career working for Tony Benn. It must have hurt to see the actual, biological heir to the Benn legacy oppose him so successfully.

uk.businessinsider.com/momentum-the-inside-story-of-how-jeremy-corbyn-took-control-of-the-labour-party-2016-2

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Corbyn

What I take nellie from this is that Corbyn is a way in for Momentum and that they have no life long loyalty to him, he is merely a conduit being used for their own far left communist ideology. They have stated aims to bring down the establishment of the UK. It seems to me that they consider the Labour Party as part of that establishment. I suspect that anyone who is not with them is considered against them and therefore dispensable. One of these young men actually used the word's 'act brutally' towards Labour moderates in the Parliamentary Party. And no doubt from their strong hold of 100 plus offices and groups across the Country the Local Labour movement members are non to secure either if Momentum have their way.

This seems to me to be a parasitic organisation feeding on the back of a bigger more established body the Labour Party, until it sucks the life out of it and emerges in it's own image, a Communist party. A light must be shone on Momentum and kept on it. The shadows are it's friend and light will reveal it.

Very scary times nellie! Nothing is as it seems.

ali g Your post of today at 21.51.
Everyone knows that Corbyn is a Leave supporter. Have you only just discovered this?
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make?

Well ali g, no apology yet for the “Fake News” that you posted about Momentum - confusing it with a company called Momentum.London?

Nigglynellie My feeling is that this answer our question about Corbyn and Remain and Leave....and the connection to Momentum’s ideology on the EU. See what you think!

JUNE 18, 2018 - 10:25 PM
Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn is both praised and criticised for one of his defining political features: sticking decade after decade to the same political views.
Some people see that as an attribute – sticking with your principles – and others as a flaw – being stuck in the past. Either way, it’s clearly a large part of his political personality.
It’s also the way to understanding his views on Brexit, as those too follow a long-run and consistent approach. He is, in short, a life-long Eurosceptic:
•Jeremy Corbyn voted for Britain to leave the European Economic Community (EEC) in the 1975 European referendum.
•Jeremy Corbyn opposed the creation of the European Union (EU) under the Maastricht Treaty – speaking and voting against it in Parliament in 1993. During the 2016 referendum campaign, Left Leave highlighted repeated speeches he made in Parliament opposing Europe during 1993.
•Jeremy Corbyn voted against the Lisbon Treaty on more than one occasion in Parliament in 2008.
•In 2010, Jeremy Corbyn voted against the creation of the European Union’s diplomatic service.
•Jeremy Corbyn voted for a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU in 2011 (breaking the Labour whip to do so).
•In 2011 Jeremy Corbyn also opposed the creation of the EU’s European Stability Mechanism, which helps members of the Euro in financial difficulties. (This vote is a good example of how Corbyn votes with hardcore Euro-sceptics. Only 26 other MPs joined him in voting against, and in their number are the likes of right-wing Euro-sceptics such as Peter Bone, Douglas Carswell, Bill Cash, Ian Paisley Junior and John Redwood.)
•Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain’s participation in the EU’s Banking Authority in 2012.
•In 2016 his long-time left-wing ally Tariq Ali said that he was sure that if Corbyn was not Labour leader he would be campaigning for Britain to leave the EU, whilst his brother Piers Corbyn also said that Jeremy Corbyn was privately opposed to Britain’s membership of the European Union.
•Jeremy Corbyn went on holiday during the 2016 referendum campaign and his office staff consistently undermined the Remain campaign. He refused to attend a key Remain campaign launch and also attacked government ministers for publicising the Remain case, saying they should also have promoted arguments in favour of Leave vote. The Director of the Remain campaign, himself a Labour member and candidate, said, “Rather than making a clear and passionate Labour case for EU membership, Corbyn took a week’s holiday in the middle of the campaign and removed pro-EU lines from his speeches”. During the referendum campaign, Leave.EU highlighted Corbyn’s attacks on Europe made in 1996.
•The day after the European referendum in 2016, Jeremy Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of Article 50 – the two-year notice to leave the EU – much quicker than even Theresa May wanted.
•In December 2016, Jeremy Corbyn voted in Parliament in favour of the UK leaving the EU and for the process to start no later than 31 March 2017.
•Jeremy Corbyn three times voted in February 2017 in favour of the Prime Minister starting the process of leaving the European Union.
•During the 2017 general election, the independent Channel 4 Factcheck service found very little difference between Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May over Europe.
•In the summer of 2017, Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain remaining in the Single Market. He even sacked from his team Labour MPs who voted in favour of membership of the Single Market.
As the Labour Leave group wrote in April 2016:
Corbyn is a well known Eurosceptic, who voted against membership in 1975, voted against the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, and voted against the Lisbon Treaty in 2009.
Given his views he has made a number of strongly anti-EU comments over the years.

www.markpack.org.uk/153744/jeremy-corbyn-brexit/

This would answer why whilst Momentum supported by 66% of membership to support “IN” as they termed it and Remain as we know it, Corbyn's luke warm remain campaign prior to the referendum vote was considered even by him to be only 7/10 in favour of remain. His enthusiasm for campaigning was criticised.

The history of Jeremy Corbyns Political career (above) clearly show’s he has always been a Eurosceptic, and has continually voted against union with the EU.
This explains his personal stance on the Pro Brexit mandate at the General Election.

The Party, has many factions Momentum being just one of the far left groups, who see Corbyn as the figure head by which they will get far left communist socialism into power in the UK. The Momentum logic on the EU is as far as I can work out is that by remaining in the EU, the UK with a puppet figure head for far left communist socialism representing the UK in the EU gives a stronger political footing as a springboard into other EEA Country’s. Since Momentums stated aim is to “democratise the European Parliament” and introduce a far left socialist centre of power as well as bring down the UK Establishment. Nationalise everything including private housing, increase taxation on all working people not just the rich. Even then the enormous cost of communism is unsustainable as we have seen in Communist Russia.

There seems to be a disconnect between Momentum and the man the are holding up as their leader. If the information I have is good, then Momentum is a self propelling propaganda machine, using high end technology, clever use of social media, and of course targeting the vulnerability of youth. The founder of Momentum is a friend of Corbyn although from what I read is not close. They believe they propelled him into power, because their was a void and they recognised it. That is how Communism took over in Russia.

For those with any doubts about Brexit, or the scale of small disruptions to your life style...consider the enormous disruption of allowing Momentum to get their foot into Government through a Puppet leader, and onward into the EEA if they have their way and try to overturn the majority vote of the British people to Brexit.

This is what have made of it all Nellie.

Ally wrote
" Corbyn's stance changing from Remain at the referendum supported by the majority of Momentum, to his Pro Brexit stance at the General Election."
Corbyn has always been anti EU, since 1974-5.