Childrens communication skills

This interests me greatly. I have 2 GC. Both have same parentage, attended same nursery and have been thoroughly spoken to, read to and encouraged in every possible sphere. Elder one age 6 is bright as a button and decidedly articulate and clear in everything she says. Younger is 4 and equally bright and never stops chatting about absolutely everything but her chat is jumbled and often difficult to grasp. Speech therapy has been mentioned but being put on the back burner for the moment. Anyone any thoughts, ideas or solutions, please?

All three of my boys went to an infant's school fluently bi-lingual. We spoke Welsh at home but were surrounded by monoglot English neighbours (Liverpool). Clearly these parents dont talk or read to their children. It is parents duty to teach their children to speak not government or infant teachers. Some go to school still in nappies, believe me I know because I taught some of them!!!!

Out for coffee and gossip (communication!!) recently with a friend we were horrified to see a couple with a child sitting in the same cafe - each adult on their respective phone, child on a tablet watching a cartoon / film. Not a word was spoken between them and they 'groped' for their drinks they were so fixated on the devices - HURMPH!!!

Its a great pity Sure start was disconinued

Think definitely mobile phones and computers have a lot to answer for. So often whilst in restaurants and cafes I see mum's sitting with their small children, and mum is playing with phone and ignoring the children. But easy to blame technology, when really the parents are responsible. I know most parents are busy these days, so it is really important to actually talk to children when time allows. I think sitting together with books at an early age helps. And I think however busy parents are, some regular child friendly time needs to be set aside.

I don't think anyone would deny there were problems in the past but I can't help thinking that using TV and electronic devices to "entertain" children is having an effect on development.

Obviously there was no social media when I was growing up TV was strictly limited, my parents would sit and read with me and I was able to read and write before I started school. My brother wanted a toy garage, so my father showed him how to make his own. Both my parents worked full time and money and time were short.

We also hear of children starting school still wearing nappies - even at the age of 5 I would have been mortified if I had to wear a nappy to school.

yggdrasil My thought exactly! Tory minister complains about children having lack of language skills but carefully forgets that Tory 'austerity' programme closed most of the Sure Start centres which were designed to help less well-provided for children get their learning skills enhanced. Perhaps we should complain about selective memory loss in ministers?

Well, amongst many other European countries, it seems to be especially a problem in the UK so I'm inclined to think that our governments must bear some of the blame.

Some other countries - notably in Scandinavia, provide much better support for families, and employment is more flexible. I think some of today's British parents are just exhausted trying to hold it all together - plus there is a relentless focus on buying stuff.

I have read several accounts - both from people using the service and from professionals researching it - of the good work that Sure Start centres do but unfortunately this government has closed down hundreds of them.

What is middle class about expecting a child aged 5 to recognise simple shapes and be able to match them, to understand words and concepts like up, down, over under, to know how a book works and to have at some time in their first 5 years held a pen or crayon and done some drawing?

Back in the 1970s, these were the problems my MiL was facing. I think if we stopped patronising and infantilising poorer families by constantly telling them what they cannot be expected to do because they are so poor and deprived and instead raised our expectations for them and encouraged them to have some aspirations, even if it is just to help their children achieve certain milestones before they reach school. we would do more to benefit them and their children than anything else.

The problem with these studies and with many of the tests used for young children is that they are based on middle. class standards and so there will always be children from lower and working class families who will 'fail' these tests. There has always been a gap between young children from poorer homes and the better off. There have been various schemes to try and provide support for such children, through book schemes, Sure Start, free nursery hours etc. They have had some success, but the problem remains. It is difficult to know if there will ever be anything which will help.

I took my DGS to a sure start toddler group. All the mums there were similar to my DD. They were trying to do their best for their children and helping them to learn to communicate and socialise.
There were no mums there with low literacy skills and if Sure Start hadn’t been available the attending mums would have found somewhere else to take them.
The SS system was set up to help those who are less capable of helping their children to develop, however it seems it hasn’t quite convinced them to join in.

Interesting post, monica (1424 replying to mine). I tend to think that every generation has a proportion, not changing much along the normal curve of distribution, of children who are not reading/listening/talking-ready when they start school. Human intelligence and parenting skills are not increasing/improving so why should what I'm going to call 'infant academic achievement' change?

Also, perhaps it is schools that need to change rather than parents. I have an uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach whenever things are made out to be parents' fault.

In general terms, is literacy increasing? I know is has done and still is doing in developing countries. Do we expect too much in developed countries? Have we decided that the educated middle-class way is the best and that that way must be imposed on everyone else whether suitable or not?

Just pondering. I think there is too much oversimplification in reports on stuff like this.

Some of the parents of the children I wrote about @12.41 often couldn't read or write. They probably missed a lot of school time in their childhood. And came from families where literacy and verbal fluency wasn't valued very highly.

Cherrytree speech delay is very different from poor communication skills. As you point out many children with speech delay come from families that are communication rich, so that even if speech is delayed they have grown up surrounded by language, conversation, books, pens and writing and once speech starts, make rapid progress. Again, as you say, these children benefit from speech therapy

The children being discussed are not speech delayed but live in homes where their parents have poor communication skills, books, reading and even pens and paper are missing. They are communication impoverished. What they need is not speech therapy but to move into an environment where they (and their parents) can be helped to develop communication skills.

The government is not responsible for teaching basic communication skills. Agree.
The government is responsible for the closure of many SureStart centres in England I believe.
I'm with monica that there are parents who are simply unable to teach these skills and that it's not all down to the obsession with phones - irritating though that is, but too simplistic.

I thought the Surestart programmes had been stopped by this government, as part of 'austerity'

It would be useful to know who is included in ”a lot of children”. Are children from immigrants taken into account? I think we have always had children with poor communication skills. Perhaps their numbers have increased. The fact that many women no longer stay at home with their children must also have an impact on a child's language development. Children are very time consuming and time is a commodity we seem to have less and less of.

Most children attend nursery now, where their speech problems are identified and addressed far sooner than in previous years, but when parents are advised on how to improve their communication skills, many don't bother.
I remember being very shocked by a mother whose two sons had language and communication problems due to deafness; she told me blithely that pre-school had told her that the infant school would sort out their speech problems. Untrue; they had given her all sorts of help and advice, and exercises to be practised at home, all recorded, which she and her husband had completely ignored. They did exactly the same with the advice from the speech therapist working with the children in school.
She was a nurse.
Apparently this is quite common; there is this expectation that someone else will sort out the child's problems, without input from the parents. Not all parents, obviously, but far too many.

I do agree that mobile phone use must also play a part in the problem, but fear that we’re in danger of solely blaming that, and missing larger more difficult problems.

Absolutely there are speech therapists available, however in my personal experience, they have very limited success. As with mental health care and life skills coaching etc, there just isn’t enough funding for the courses to be properly effective, they also have to often deal with those who just don’t help. The inmates still (often) leave prison with very limited skills, which they will unfortunaty, probably pass on to their children.

It's quite evident when out and about, that some parents are more engaged with their phone than their children. I suppose each generation eventually adapts to the prevailing circumstances that surround them on a day to day basis. Although I perceive there are frustrations for young children when responses aren't forthcoming because the parents although with them physically aren't with them in spirit. That's where grandparents come into their own I guess we remember life without the mobile phone when conversation with whoever you were with took priority.

Well I think the Beach thread the other day would go some way to explaining it.
However it is not always the case.
Two of my three grandsons had speech delay.
Both talked to non-stop by parents and grandparents.
My DD started talking and singing to her babies whilst still in the womb.
My second grandson - brother to one, spoke non stop from very early age.

Thankfully my eldest grandson started talking in time for school
(He started school at 4 yrs old)

My youngest grandson at 3yrs has only just started talking but is building up vocabulary quite quickly.

All Children now get free 15 hours a week nursery and this should be helping with children communication skills.
And also picking up on any speech problems.
We were very lucky the lady that ran my DGS's nursery was also trained in speech therapy.
A good nursery will communicate any concerns with parents and health visitors.
Speech and communication problems should also show when the child has their age 2 and 3 year check ups by the community heath visitor.

Various research studies have found very poor communication skills among prisoners in both young offender and adult prisons. Speech and language therapists are employed in the prison service.

Baggs it will vary from school to school. My DGC attend a primary school that draws children from a deprived council estate as well as an area of comfortable professional homes and I understand from DS & DDil and a significant proportion of children there lack all kinds of skills when they start school.

My MiL was a reception year teacher in a small town in North Bucks and in the 1970s, many of the 19th century terrace houses around the school she taught in were being bought up cheaply by the council and being used for problem families. She used to say that in that period the children starting school with poor communication skills went from 2 or 3 a year group to nearly half the intake. In her words they had been talked over, talked at and talked through, but never talked to. They had never been read to, seen a book, held a pen, could not identify shapes and lacked basic vocabulary. It frequently took her 2 terms to get them reading ready. Leaving her only a term to get them up and reading. Teachers in the year above just assumed all the children had the basics, despite her warning them of those that were already falling behind and in need of extra help, which they rarely got. They probably never caught up.

Those children are the parents of today's children with communication problems.

As M0nica says, I think a large part of the problem stems from the parents lack of language skills.

I worked in a young offenders institution many moons ago, and was stunned by the complete lack of even the most simple language skills I witnessed (possibly a large part of how they ended up there, but that’s another topic!) I would estimate that around three quarters of those I had dealings with struggled with basic literacy and numeracy. Those men will now be in their mid to late 40s, many raising children of their own. How are they ever going to be able to teach their children, when they lack the basic education themselves?

Assuming those children go on to have children of their own, the problem will just repeat itself. Intervention is needed for deprived areas, as has already been mentioned. I personally feel that it is previous generations of children who have been let down, not just the current one.