Exit from Brexit

www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/01/it-s-time-accept-labour-manifesto-you-voted-promised-hard-brexit

The EU Withdrawal Bill cleared the House of Commons this week, with Labour formally ordering MPs to vote against the Bill at the Third Reading. It meant that only a handful of Labour MPs support the EU Withdrawal Bill, despite the fact that more than 70 per cent of Labour MPs represent constituencies that voted to leave the European Union, and up to five million Labour voters also supported Leave.

On 23 June 2016, voters were simply asked if they would like to remain a member of the EU or leave it. *But the Labour manifesto in 2017 was a hard Brexit manifesto. it promised to leave the European Union by 'accepting the result" and that "freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union". By definition for freedom of movement to end, we will have to leave the single market, since as the EU's chief negotiator has observed, the four freedoms are indivisible*. In the North of England and in the Midlands, as well as other parts of the country, voters flocked to Labour and supported our Brexit manifesto. In light of the vote this week in Parliament, these voters will now be more cautious with their trust.
The Spectator.

Mama this is clear that Labour supported and promised to support hard Brexit as explained the four freedoms being indivisible as far at the EU is concerned means we leave the single market, we leave the customs union and there will be no freedom of movement. This was the stance of the Labour Party at the General Election, this is unequivocal endorsement of the referendum majority vote to leave the EU.

No, nigglienellie, to be pro-Brexit means in favour of Brexit, whereas to accepts the referendum means just that - accept it. I 'accept' that I will never be beautiful, but that doesn't mean that I am happy about it, or even that I would not change that if it were possible.
Two very different things!

Let me put he same question to you as I did to Allygran:
The parties' manifestos (most of which had nothing to do with Brexit) were just for fun, were they?

As has been mentioned many times on the various threads, the legally binding status of a referendum and a general election is not the same.
ie referendum advisory.
GE legally binding.

MamaCaz, where did I say anything was just for fun? Very serious matter indeed.

Yes I am saying that everyone who voted either Labour or Conservative was aware that the party they were voting for was Pro Brexit. It was in their Manifesto, it was said on the hustings and it was in leaflets dropped through certainly my door by both Party's. If any one voted who did not agree with these clear manifesto promises, and commitments made by these Party's then it is their own fault. They should have voted Lib Dem who clearly said they were against Brexit. This is not a game Mama, it's the real world, our votes do matter. We put that X in a box because it is important to register our support for something, or it might be a strategic vote but it is intended and it is based on what we read in manifesto's and how we see ourselves being Governed and the direction for the Country. It surprises me that any one would not see this and treat it lightly.

Both Conservative and Labour Party stood at the General Election for Brexit, indeed both stood on a platform of hard Brexit. The General Election endorsed the Referendum and empowered the Government to negotiate a hard Brexit, supported by the Opposition, whoever that might have been at that time. It turned out to be Conservative supported by Labour as far as Brexit is concerned. This is unequivocal Mama.

Yes we got that several times, Fennel. Advisory referendum, that was accepted into policy. So the Government took the advise of the Country that we leave the EU. A General Election called to ascertain endorsement of the Brexit policy was held and in that General Election both Conservative and Labour Party stood on hard Brexit manifesto's. Therefore endorsing the policy of Brexit, indeed hard Brexit for whichever Party became Government or Opposition.

The General Election superseded the referendum and empowered the Government (whichever got in at that time) to proceed towards a hard Brexit based on the manifesto's of both Conservative and Labour Party's commitments.

MamaCaz, just to be completely clear, manifesto's are NOT just for "fun" as you put it. Anyone who thinks or dismisses the information in the manifesto of the party they are thinking about voting for should be more cautious and not cavalier about who they give their important support to and why they are doing so.

Certainly at the 2017 General Election I read every Manifesto and every leaflet that came through the door. Whilst I know who I would normally vote for, this time I was more cautious and made sure that I knew exactly what they were promising with regard to Brexit. Whilst Brexit was only part of the manifesto's it was the main reason that the GE was called and to have regarded the manifesto promises about Brexit as not important would have been very foolish, it was the main issue.

Allygran.
The withdrawal bill came long after the General Election, so has no relevance whatsoever to that election, and the 'interpretation' of Labour's manifesto given in that cut and paste is just that, an interpretation. As so many posts on this thread have proved, it is very easy to selectively take parts of almost any written document and, either deliberately or accidently, misinterpret them to suit one's own argument
I can find nowhere in the Brexit part of the manifesto that says that they want a hard Brexit, though they are very clear that they are against a no deal. Also, saying that freedom of movement will end when we leave is presented as a simple fact, an acknowledgment that it will happen with Brexit!

But Allygran, can you not see that by saying that the last general election was purely about Brexit, you are dismissing all the non-Brexit-related manifesto pledges as irrelevant in that election, so making the manifestos themselves irrelevant in that election?

Mamacaz
The terms 'hard' and 'soft' Brexits are only recent manifestations so of course were not mention within the Pre General Election manifesto. At that stage it was still rightly accepted that the referendum returned a vote to leave, not hard, not soft...just leave.
Freedom of movement will only end as a result of sour grapes, Brits and European countries inhabitants have enjoyed freedom of movement for centuries. Why do some people think our islands will be cast adrift in the north sea with the channel tunnel blocked, the ferries sunk and planes diverted around any European airspace.
It is sad that some are living on such high levels of anxiety.

A General Election called to ascertain endorsement of the Brexit policy was held and in that General Election both Conservative and Labour Party stood on hard Brexit manifesto's. Therefore endorsing the policy of Brexit, indeed hard Brexit for whichever Party became Government or Opposition.

That is wrong on so many counts.

Firstly, as has been pointed out so many times already on this thread, the last General Election was not called to endorse the referendum result. It was called because TM thought she could increase the Tory majority, thereby making it easier to force unpopular bills through Parliament. And even that this failed, returning a reduced majority.
Then to try to claim that votes for the main opposition party also count as an endorsement of the referendum result, on the (dubious) grounds that Labour was also pro-Brexit, beggars belief!

mamacaz
Then to try to claim that votes for the main opposition party also count as an endorsement of the referendum result, on the (dubious) grounds that Labour was also pro-Brexit, beggars belief!
You say you have read the pre election manifestos. Don't you accept that both manifesto's stated that they upheld the manifest decision to leave the EU and would invoke article 50?

MamaCaz the key point is that you are right there was no words that said hard or soft initially, Joelsnan is right it was taken that we would leave the EU. In the General Election however, two things. Conservatives said "no deal is better than a bad deal" and the Labour party said " no single market, no custom's union and no free movement" since the EU regard these things as indivisible that mean's as we are seeing now, that there is no deal so that mean hard Brexit, out without any special deal. That has always been from the outset at the General Election campaign on the cards, and made clear. The fact that Brexit was just one of the manifesto promises is completely irrelevant, it was the main reason the GE was called. So anyone who missed that must have moved out to avoid the GE campaign. Also it was a main hustings and leaflet mandate comment. You cannot have missed that Mama.

MamaCaz you are right the Bill did come after the GE.

The part of the post that you might have read is this:

On 23 June 2016, voters were simply asked if they would like to remain a member of the EU or leave it.

^*But the Labour manifesto in 2017 was a hard Brexit manifesto^*. it promised to leave the European Union by 'accepting the result" and that "freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union". By definition for freedom of movement to end, we will have to leave the single market, since as the EU's chief negotiator has observed, the four freedoms are indivisible. In the North of England and in the Midlands, as well as other parts of the country, voters flocked to Labour and supported our Brexit manifesto. In light of the vote this week in Parliament, these voters will now be more cautious with their trust.
The Spectator.

By the way MamaCaz the In light of the vote this week in Parliament, these voters will now be more cautious with their trust refers to the way the Labour Party MPs voted against their electorate on the third reading of The Bill. Difficult to split the article but it made it easier for you to see the relevant bit about the 2017 GE manifesto of the Labour Party.

Joelsnan

"mamacaz
Then to try to claim that votes for the main opposition party also count as an endorsement of the referendum result, on the (dubious) grounds that Labour was also pro-Brexit, beggars belief!"

"You say you have read the pre election manifestos. Don't you accept that both manifesto's stated that they upheld the manifest decision to leave the EU ..."

In fact no, I didn't say that I had read the Conservative manifesto. I already knew enough about their policies since 2010 to know that I would not be voting for them in 2017.

The only part of the Labour manifesto that I have looked at is the section on Brexit. As I have already said, that says that they 'accept the referendum result'. It is a very ambiguous statement which does not necessarily amount to anything more than recognition of the fact that the majority of those who voted wanted to leave.

"... and would invoke article 50?"

I haven't found that claim in the Labour manifesto.
This was the only direct reference to article 50 that I saw, though I freely admit to only skim-reading, due to time constraints. I have pasted across two paragraphs so that context is not lost:

A Labour government will immediately guarantee existing rights for all EU nationals living in Britain and secure reciprocal rights for UK citizens who have chosen to make their lives in EU countries. EU nationals do not just contribute to our society: they are part of our society. And they should not be used as bargaining chips.

It is shameful that the Prime Minister rejected repeated attempts by Labour to resolve this issue before Article 50 was triggered. As a result three million EU nationals have suffered unnecessary uncertainty, as have the 1.2 million UK citizens living in the EU.

My own feeling was that at the time of the election - and remember it was thrust upon us all at very short notice - Labour was deliberately ambiguous. The referendum result was very close, and it's reasonable to assume that support for Brexit was equally divided within the party, so I can see why they would not want to commit firmly to one side or the other at that stage!

But support for brexit was never equally divided within the Labour Party. Most Labour Mps, most LP members and most Labour voters supported remaining in the EU.

Varian party politics.....this means that when the party select you as a candidate then you stand for election at the General Election on the Party Mandate, you are then suppose to support the Party in Parliament. If you don't and we have had this conversation before...the Whip will be applied and you will first be given a three line Whip and if you then don't vote with the party you could have the Whip withdrawn and would be unable to vote at all and would sit as an Independent until the Whip if ever was restored. It matters not what the individual MPs believe if they support Labour and get in as a Labour MP these rules apply. They can argue debate as much as they like, the Party Manifesto binds them to vote with their Party when they are required to do so.

Mama Mia Labour were not deliberately ambiguous at all. They were very clear on Brexit trigger article 50. No freedom of movement and since the single market and customs union are indivisible that is hard Brexit.

I meant 'was equally divided' in the sense of 'in a similar manner' (i.e. 'was also very divided'), rather than 'in the same proportions'.
A poor choice of word in the circumstances, I admit.

varian
I think you will find that most traditional labour voters also voted leave. It is they who have seen their lives affected most by the EU.
Some of the 'new' labour types those that joined to support Corbyn and are more the middle class hipster types probably did vote remain.

MamaCaz it's always someone else fault that you either didn't have enough information, or that the GE was sprung on you. You got the same amount of time for the campaign as is always allowed. You had a hugh amount of time between the referendum and the GE to pick up on all the talk about Brexit, the negotiations, the triggering of article 50 with Labour saying they would have triggered it on the first day in Government had they got into power. The whole of that time was Brexit, Brexit, Brexit...newspapers, discussion you name it we had it. Take some responsibility for your own decision to vote as you did in the General Election, you and the whole Country had more than enough information and knew exactly what your Party was promising on Brexit, if you didn't then it's your own fault.

I agree with that Joelsnan.

Allygran1

MamaCaz it's always someone else fault that you either didn't have enough information, or that the GE was sprung on you. You got the same amount of time for the campaign as is always allowed. You had a hugh amount of time between the referendum and the GE to pick up on all the talk about Brexit, the negotiations, the triggering of article 50 with Labour saying they would have triggered it on the first day in Government had they got into power. The whole of that time was Brexit, Brexit, Brexit...newspapers, discussion you name it we had it. Take some responsibility for your own decision to vote as you did in the General Election, you and the whole Country had more than enough information and knew exactly what your Party was promising on Brexit, if you didn't then it's your own fault

Patronising or what!

No! Just the way it comes over on your post to me MamaCaz.

Then you need to read more carefully. Nowhere have I said that I have not had enough information, or do not take responsibility for my own vote, or not know what my party was promising on Brexit? (Not that I have 'a party' as such.)

MamaCaz you pick out "not had enough information" from the overall message of the post. You said:

My own feeling was that at the time of the election - and remember it was thrust upon us all at very short notice - Labour was deliberately ambiguous. The referendum result was very close, and it's reasonable to assume that support for Brexit was equally divided within the party, so I can see why they would not want to commit firmly to one side or the other at that stage!

Perhaps I misunderstood "deliberately ambiguous" "referendum result was very close, and "it's reasonable to assume that support for Brexit was equally divided within the party" or that "not want to commit firmly to one side or the other at that stage" are not all excuses for not accepting that the GE was largely about Brexit. Not all about Brexit but certainly it was in our face before the GE was called it was in our face during the campaign. Your post does not support that fact. We will have to disagree that the Labour manifesto was deliberately ambiguous, it was supporting the Brexit decision it was ready if in power to trigger article 50, and it was against free movement of goods and people which in EU regulations is indivisible from the single market, and the customs union, therefore by definition that would be hard brexit. Since you will never accept this, we shall just have to agree to disagree.