Boris Johnson's Latest 'Gaff'

Then if the burka or niqab isn't being worn out of choice, but because husbands or male family members insist on it; is it that Muslim men are saying that all men are unable to conduct themselves properly towards women? This is an offensive implication that all men are sexual predators, surely?

Yes. Tradition and family rules (maybe or maybe not set by men) run hand in hand I would have thought.

Perhaps these women have been told/threatened by their men folk to say that they're wearing the hijab of their own free will!!!? There's a thought!

Totally fair Maw, no issues with that at all; her choice to dress however she wishes. It only comes unstuck, imo, when the custom and culture of the country you are in reveals it face to others when interacting. But even then, it opens up another issue as to whether they should have to remove their face covering when in banks, airports etc, as motorcyclists, kids with hoodies etc do.

Not sure about that, Maw. It's a family tradition in their country. When we go home for Christmas most of us drink alcohol. It's our tradition in our country. If we got caught doing that in a muslim country??

Is it fair to justify something because it's a family tradition?

From the Letters column in today’s Telegraph

SIR – On a bus in Tehran, I got into conversation with a young woman wearing a burka and asked whether she did so because she was very religious, or as a political statement. She said: “It’s neither. In your family, do you go home for Christmas with your parents?” I said I did, always. “Wearing the burka for me is the same. You go home for Christmas; in our family we wear a burka as it’s our family tradition. “
Fair comment?

Terribul I don't think that every woman who wears the hijab, burkha or niqab is forced to wear it, either by religious or family pressures. Some women have stated that they wear it because they want to; it's their choice in many cases.

Terribul British values are also on the curriculum in the UK & have to be promoted in schools and nurseries. www.nurseryresources.org/post/Teaching-British-Values-for-EYFS

I have an Iranian neighbour, very western in her dress and way of life, who goes back to Iran from time to time to see extended family and has of course to comply with the enforced headscarf much to her disgust. I wonder how any of us would feel if we were told we had to cover our head when we were out and about, let alone cover every part of our body, bar our eyes, by our male relatives and the wider male population, or risk being arrested and beaten. What must that feel like to have every aspect of your life even down to mode of dress controlled by men

I just think the burka is dehumanising and goes against the natural human means of communication

This.

If we, as a society, have the freedom to wear a garment that makes others feel uncomfortable in seeing it; we must also have the freedom to express that discomfort without being branded racist or intolerant.

"How many women do you see everyday that make you feel threatened by them" Like you PECS quite honestly not many. However, on the same subject over on MN, that was also posed and then a few posters interjected with "all, the time, every day". I gather they were living in heavily populated Muslim areas in the north of England, so really it's pretty much a question of where you live. They then put forward varying opinions such as when gathering at the school gates to pick up their offspring, there was very little mixing with the covered up mothers, and the face covering didn't help as it served as a barrier. I've also read testaments such as, indigenous population who stay in areas where such people are prolific begin to feel displaced and uncomfortable. It might be worth noting liberal countries such as Denmark have not only banned the burka but are seeking to put the onus on Muslim communities to make more of an effort to integrate, mandatory pre school for under fives where Danish values will be taught are either in force or proposed. Angela Merkel, I understand has contemplated a ban because she also sees face coverings as a barrier to communication. I also believe that the perception in egalitarian societies that women who wear such garments are controlled by a patriarchy and this is at odds with their culture. Possibly they manage to convey that in a more diplomatic and tactful way. A lot of western societies have as much an issue with it as Arabic ones have with women being uncovered.

A friend lived in Iran at the time women were being forced to cover up, she said the biggest enforcers were the female guards when they would hit a woman showing a small piece of hair. Women are sometimes much stricter than men.

I do not feel threatened by women wearing burkas -I have no expectation that they might do me harm. I just think the burka is dehumanising and goes against the natural human means of communication through facial expression - which even babies can do.

I am also unhappy that this is a cultural tenet that only applies to women - in this year of anniversary of women's emancipation in the UK, I find it disturbing that some of our female fellow citizens are brainwashed into such a negation of their humanity. That is why I find it chilling; not because I have an expectation of harm.

BJ expressed that opinion in his usual blunt fashion. He knows what he is doing and I think we should leave him to stew. But he is allowed to say this; and indeed should be allowed to say this.

As far as I can see, he is not targeting the women themselves and denigrating them; he is targeting a principle that says it is OK to dehumnise women in this way in the UK.

I do not think it is OK - I think it is thoroughly inhumane.

We have got ourselves in a tangle when it comes to tolerance of religious expression; religion carries far more weight than any other consideration, even race, when it comes to bending over backwards not to give offence. I do not think this is a comfortable position, and needs to be re-thought.

Queenie doesn’t wear headscarves in the high street.

Luckylegs how many women wearing burkas do you see everyday to make you feel so threatened by them? I see many women wearing the hijab..which is pretty similar to HMQ wearing her horsy headscarves, but only very occasionally do I see a niqab ..not sure I have seen a burka ... I lived in Sth London for years..Tooting is a popular area for Muslim families & I still go there quite often. Do read yhe full fact link I posted. Johnson wants to make people think this is a huge issue..it is not.

As already mentioned, Boris has been called, buffoon, fat and far worse, but that's ok is it? I think it is, a small price to pay for freedom of speech.He takes it. Are we supposed to change the way we think though if something is said about a minority! If you live in any country you try to fit in and learn the language and work and accept that. Otherwise go to a country upholding your beliefs and ethics. Is the country you move to having to change itself for the millions that have come here, no you integrate, wearing a Burkha that hides your facial expressions is not fitting in, shops will not let people in hoodies into shopping centres, if you went into a bank in bike leathers, crash hat and visor down, that would not be allowed, quite rightly, regardless of who they are, yet somehow that doesn't apply to Burhas.

Johnson with his offensive words (not to mention lies) during the Brexit campaign has done more than his fair share to stir up racism in UK. It is now socially acceptable to say things that were socially unacceptable before.

Insulting women who are not in a position to answer him back is bullying; if you choose to call it free speech, I don't. He has set society (of this country) back years.

fullfact.org/law/what-are-rules-burkas-and-niqabs-uk/

This might be useful / interesting for some people to read.

Baggs I would agree with your statement 're a liberal society..unfortunately I rather think Johnson is behaving in the US use of the word and for deliberate political gain. Context is important in this.

Russell Blackford, Australian philosopher, tweeted:

"A liberal society (in the historical sense, not the weird American sense, of "liberalism") has to tolerate both the burka and ridicule of the burka. See, it's simple."

That seems to be the tack BJ was taking in the article he wrote.

“Powerless women” ? Are you joking?

I have no problem with anybody wearing anything that they want to wear within the rules of our society. If you are required to have an uncovered face, then I see no reason why anybody cannot be asked to uncover. I don't find a group of ladies with their faces covered half as intimidating as a group of youths in hoodies but, if I choose to say so, nobody would cry that I was being unfair to youths and opening them up to intimidation. If Boris had said all motorcyclists in their helmets looked like bank robbers, nobody would say anything about that either. Whilst I still don't think it was a very nice thing to say, I rather think there may be more of a hoo ha than necessary.
As I say, I don't find ladies with their faces covered intimidating but neither do I find them particularly friendly either which rather sets them apart which I find quite sad.

I am on the inside, being married to an Arab who has worked for Royal Families and I have worked for their children as a teacher and chauffeur. Long before I met my husband I lived in Kuwait with my parents in 1965 as dad helped build a desalination plant there. When it was time to leave, dad cashed in our plane tickets and bought a car to drive home through Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, Bulgaria, former Yugoslavia, spent Christmas in Verona, on to France where he ran out of money and somehow had to get us all home. I don't wish to comment on the dress as it hasn't played a big part in my involvement with Arabs.

I'm on the fence about it, simply because I have no idea if they are coerced or choosing to cover up.
The only Muslim woman I have ever had contact with covered up by her own volition.
There is no way she would have put up with a man telling her she should.

I feel very conflicted about this subject. I would strongly defend the right of anyone to wear whatever they wish. But I have to admit that I find the burka an alarming and intimidating sight. In the same way that I don't like it when I see someone wearing a full motorbike helmet and face shield. But I would defend to the death their right to wear them.
But why is one obliged to remove their face covering in banks, restaurants and other public places? And the other is not? One group accepts the obvious reasons for removal of face coverings. The other does not.

I am actually sick and disgusted at the level of nastiness directed at these women on Gransnet. If you really feel that some of these women have been coerced into wearing this clothing, why not show a bit of decency and empathy instead of marginalising them even further and presenting them as something less than human.

I am truly appalled by some of the comments made on here.