Boris Johnson's Latest 'Gaff'

My neighbour told me herself that she had "been brought" to England to marry her cousin.

Another friend of mine who lived up the road gave my neighbour her first lessons in English. By the time I knew my neighbour her English was fluent.

The Other People phrase was what MrNextDoor said his mother had said. He must have translated it because his mother did not speak English. I think he was second generation British-Pakistani. I assumed so because of his mother not speaking English though the subject never came up because why would it while we were all getting along fine like normal good neighbours until his mother shoved a spoke in the wheel?

Baggs I am wondering why somebody walked by you gate saying " pity you couldn't have got a Muslim to do that" and I am asking what language they were speaking.

Baggs, generalisations from 1 anecdotal experience or 2, are not helpful. Most Muslim would say that this comment re finding a Muslim to help instead, was unfair and stupid. All the ones I know for sure.

Most Muslims do not wear a chador or a burka- some do not wear any kind of special clothing at all. cultural, totally, not religious.

As Jane said, it would be good for a proper debate to take place in the UK, with all parties represented- and discuss the burka/chador and how to legislate. I would personally agree to all full face cover to be banned, in UK and all EU and Switzerland too. It has no place here, and no real place in Islam either. I would also ban all religious schools, ALL.

But BoJo was wrong to use the terms he used - he knows this, it was calculated and stupid, and does NOT help - AT ALL.

There are Christians groups that dictate what their women wear, still today. And not long ago in parts of Europe, and Ireland, where a son or daughter were expected to join the Catholic religious orders- some in my generation did.

In which language what?

I don't understand that post, batty.

how very weird.....in which language?

Immigrant from Pakistan ....always good to know.

married to her cousin....again useful information.

And, to get back to the thread's original theme, it is Muslims wearing niqabs, or those who make them to wear them, who are still behaving in a separatist way by hiding their faces. It is not any other, or any part of any other religious or cultural group.

The MiL was being tribal, and I mean that in a negative, disapproving way. I object to being labelled Other People when I had gone out of my way to be a friendly approachable neighbour whom the actual neighbours appreciated, and I them.

All cultures are not equal.

Should I have said non-British-Pakistani, then, jura? Even if that were a preferable term, the unfriendly behaviour is the same, and that is what I was talking about.

Cultural, not religious.

So was the mother-in-law of my Oxforshire next-door-neighbour (an immigrant from Pakistan married to her cousin) being racist when she said her grandchildren couldn't come into my house because they were not allowed, according to her, to go into the houses of "other people", i.e. non-Muslims?

Yes, Baggs, we had a similar situation: we've always got on OK with our (Pakistani) neighbours. The mother was unwell & hubby went round & did some gardening for her. Another muslim walked past, sighed loudly & said "you'd have thought she could've got a muslim to do that for her." !!

No, I haven't read it, but I think that to be connected in a meaningful way to Christianity one would have to believe in Christ.
Believing his teachings are a good way to live is different altogether.

I do not think that it was a woman who decided that showing one's hair is immodest.

I agree.

I'm not sure that Dawkins connects to Christianity in any meaningful way though, jura and Baggs

Why do you say that, jal? I'd have said he connects to it more than many who claim to be christians. Have you read The God Delusion? He'd have to be pretty connected in a meaningful way to have written that.

I do not think that it was a woman who decided that showing one's hair is immodest.

Thanks, jura. Quite so but I was responding to a post that mentioned increasingly liberal style of female dressing in Western culture. And what I meant was that someone who found that liberal style not modest enough did not have to cover her face to be modest herself or to protect herself from someone else's immodesty.

I'm not sure that Dawkins connects to Christianity in any meaningful way though, jura and Baggs

honestly, oldbatty do you think the rest of us know nothing?

sorry, sigh all you like but people who think it is acceptable to tell a woman she is prettier without her burka may actually be so stupid as to not know this is outside clothing.

Also all this talk of barriers and non verbal communication would be easily overcome face to face in a home environment.

Baggs, you wrote : 'One can still dress modestly and, in fact, most westerners do.' - to which I replied 'most Muslim women do'.

As for the 'cultural Christian' , it is very similar to the 'cultural Jew'.

I kind of get that, but is that rather a form of plagiarism?

This is connected to Richard Dawkins' idea of cultural christianity. He calls himself a cultural christian even though he's an atheist. I get that.

The adaptation idea is interesting, fennel, and not something I'd thought of so thank you for that.

What I meant though was that religions and expressions of them arise within cultures so that I see culture as encompassing religion. I wouldn't say something is cultural not religious, therefore, if its expression was particularly dominant in one religious group.

I think I know what I mean! Hope it's clearer than mud.

What should I do when I encounter casual racism?
When it happened to me I challenged her and she looked shocked and said it didn't apply to me, she was very fond of me.

Casual racism is one form of racism. It refers to conduct involving negative stereotypes or prejudices about people on the basis of race, colour or ethnicity. [sigh]
Islam is not a race.
I have a good friend who is Muslim; he is white, born in England.

you do realise Muslim women dont wear any head wear inside the home with family or in a female only environment?
[sigh] honestly, oldbatty do you think the rest of us know nothing?

That is what I find worrying, in fact, that it is suppression of femininity, which is only to observed by men in the family. This places a certain blame on women for arousing men in a sexual way rather than on the men for being unable to behave in a civilised manner around women who are not shrouded and covered.