Has the referendum poisoned our society?

Thank you Jalima1108, I have restrained from comments because of the frequent sarcasm rather than constructive debates that occur in these columns I now seem to have caught the bug in expressing my own views. I only hope I do not lower my own standards of good manners when I come across sheer prejudicial rudeness. I do enjoy your contributions todate.

Apologies if you are not a journalist seeking views MarthaBeck - but GN threads have before now appeared in the msm, along with user names too and sometimes this seems to have happened after a new poster appears asking for posters' opinions.

If you are a new poster then welcome

message Jalima1108, re your question I am more of a reader than a poster in these columns. I have notice though over a long period trends of rudeness between a few regular contributors, however, I have found the majority of the contributions highly informative, even those that are generated by misinformation from the likes of the Mail and Telegraph. I would like to hear more males views in the columns, though my partners says not a chance, far too many of the few male contributor are immediately attacked by extreme feminists, not sure I agree. Perhaps we should seek wider views.

I personally, as someone who has many Muslim friends and family, think the burka or full face covering should be banned, simply and clearly, in public places, in the UK and the EU.
However, Boris does not believe in a ban.

(Yes, wrong thread but I thought it was worth answering)

Is this on the right thread. ?
(“Boris Johnson’s gaffe”)

In fact, all family and friends agree, not some.

Is the problem not about who and how said it? Surely in his political rôle he should indeed be careful what he says and how he says it?

I personally, as someone who has many Muslim friends and family, think the burka or full face covering should be banned, simply and clearly, in public places, in the UK and the EU. Allow full length clothing and sleeves, allow a scarf, even if it covers side of face, as long as face/eyes are not covered. Some of my Muslim family and friends totally agree with this too.

But for Boris Johnson to officially write such words in the Press, is totally unacceptable and offensive- and no gaff but totally calculated for effect.

Once again.....major inquiries into some sort of "phobia" are being demanded when people express their legitimate concerns - in this case about the security and women's freedom implications of the burka.

It is an erosion of free speech. It is not racist or objectionable to raise concerns

Well said Luckygirl

The move is a crafty one - to brand people as racists or bigots if they hold opinions different from theirs.

It IS an erosion of free speech not to be able to speak out or protest, and those people slyly accusing others of 'isms' are to be detested.

Many dreadful and cruel regimes came to power through suppression of freedom of speech.

Most sane people deplore hate speech and won't tolerate it, but to shut down discussion because it doesn't suit a political agenda is extremely worrying and every person in the UK ought to to be aware it's happening.

We are becoming frightened to speak out for fear of being branded by the "politically correct party", who seem intent on being the arbiters of what is acceptable and what is not.

the last three doctors I saw at our local hospital were Dutch,Greek and German ,all three were excellent .Our local hospital is having services cut left right and centre because of a lack of staff so if these Gynae staff go thats another service that will bite the dust .

Diana
More information here:
www.gov.uk/government/publications/nursing-degree-apprenticeships-factsheet/nursing-degree-apprenticeship-factsheet

Fair enough I say, and I'll agree- but will it take any less time to train, give experience and recruit? No, not much anyway.

As for doctors, 6 years, + 1 year, + at least 3 years experience to be at bottom of ladder.

Diana, perhaps we need to think back to Auxiliary, S,E.N and S.R.N. Seems nursing requires a degree now, could be there are young people who want to nurse but not go to university. One of my sisters went into nursing, she took her A’levels, worked on the wards and passed exams to become a SRN then Sister, now she would need a degree , fair enough, but girls then who didn’t gain their A’levels worked on the wards, became SEN’s , those without O and A’s could work on wards as auxiliary nurses.

Anniebach, how do we get more of our own people to take up medicine, nursing and care work ?. The pay is good enough, one girl I know is a senior nurse drives a big Mercedes 4x4, has 3 kids too and earns a lot more than her husband, hard work but the prospects are good
I hear that there is a Nursing Apprenticeship scheme just started, is that the equivalent of the Student Nurses we all remember from long ago, does anyone know?.

Yes I know Diana, but it is NHS which is spoken of far more than hotel staff etc

It's not just NHS its across all service, care industry and manufacturing, skilled and unskilled, if we demand their services the have to be housed somewhere.

But not all immigrants work in the NHS, I have no problem with immigration just putting forward what has been said to me. Immigrants caused housing shortage, longer waiting times in NHS, willing to work for less pay than British workers , terrorism. Many voted out through fear . Before I am accused of sharing these fears, I voted remain.

The consultants I have seen at our local hospital have been:

Rheumatology Iranian (I think)
Orthopaedics Asian
ENT Chinese and Indian
Dermatology American (British by marriage)
Anaesthetist Asian

They were all (except the American) clearly British educated and spoke with a posher accent than mine - well, I am a Scot.
I owe so much to these excellent doctors, mostly, I would say, second generation immigrants and I fear for the future of the NHS if such professionals are told that UK is no longer their home.

Old Meg is quite right. Can someone remind us perhaps, how many years does it take to become

a doctor
a nurse
a dentist,
an audiologist
a radiographer, etc, etc, etc

let alone get the above to acquire the necessary experience on top of basic qualifications.

Will they all be ready in March 2019? Are you sure?

I telephone canvassed in the lead up to the referendum, a large majority gave immigration as their reason for voting out. Housing, unemployment, long wait for NHS treatment the main reasons , very few racist comments, just too many immigrants, I posted this at the time.

Well said MarthaBeck

I'm amazed, Brexit is not going to result in any reduction in immigration, not a single one, in fact we are likely to see a continued increase in migration.
I take a friend to her hospital appointments, yesterday she was seen by a Nigerian nurse and a Polish Doctor, another couple in the waiting room saw a Greek doctor. Last week I took her to see the audiologist, a Romanian lady, indeed my own hairdresser is Romanian.
It's a great shame that UK staff cannot be found to fill these jobs and recruitment has to be done overseas. All these no longer get free health care or benefits, they have to pay for treatment, and the rules are being tightened all the time as they should be to prevent freeloading.

It's a travesty that so many in the UK pick immigration as a justification for Brexit

Jennifer Eccles is absolutely right. We have far too many people living in this country, and we are seeing the consequences of unlimited immigration. Xenophobia has nothing whatever to do with it. Using the term is simply a way to shut up the people who have genuine concerns. Governments never seem to look ahead and consider the long term effects of their actions.

so are you saying there are not enough British doctors, nurses, plumbers etc?

I am perfectly sure you are not, so your argument doesn't hold water

I am perfectly sure we do NOT have enough British doctors, and nurses (of whatever colour) to support our NHS. I’d add dentists into that list too.

Probably the Romans looked down on the Celts.
The Romans looked down on everyone who wasn't a Roman.

And enslaved many of them.

I read the OP which was not quite what I expected after reading the heading.
Are you a new poster MarthaBeck?
And are you a journalist?

BlueBelle
And yes the referendum has taken us back 60 years .... hideous
A somewhat OTT statement.

The UK managed perfectly well with UK trades and labourers, we trained our own doctors, nurses, plumbers and bricklayers.
In 2004 Poland joined the EU and UK did not restrict movement of Polish Nationals as there had always been a special relationship between the two countries, however no one expected the flood of migrants that came, yes many were skilled, hard workers who accepted less wages. Companies started to recruit directly from Poland so UK employees were sidelined as expensive, lazy and slapdash, a change in attitude from before 2004.
Medical training was reduced, why train when you can import one already skilled, nurse training became more restrictive as did general apprenticeships for the same reason. Instead of investing in training those who would have benefitted were called lazy...was that true, or was it for a reason? If no training required then this overhead then becomes a profit. And, if it was true then it is society in general to address this and stop treating our children as china objects.
Of course Polish and other European workers are not to blame for going where the money is, but the impact on the UK workforce, the dumbing down if their pay, their skill levels and youth training has been (as you put it) ...hideous