4 Day Week

It would be a minefield, what about education? Would school only be 4 days a week?

Scheduling childcare and routines would be a nightmare. What happens if the 4 days parents work differed from the school days? or would it just be a case of Grandparents picking up the pieces even more.

The world changes all the time, We all have to adapt to survive. Businesses are no different. As for schools, should they just be seen as a childminding service? Or could a four day week be an opportunity for a new kind of childminding service and another job created?

How do artificial intelligence and automation help a small shopkeeper, cafe, hairdresser, social service worker, teacher, nurse, doctor, dentist, to do their job with customers/clients who need appointments or attention seven days a week, sometimes twentyfour hours a day?

Those who work on an appointments system can only meet people when the appointment time suits the client. If the client is working four days a week, maybe for longer hours, they will want appointments on one of their three days off. So someone else will have to be employed on some of those three days. Great for extra jobs, perhaps, but not for the employer, who will have the extra employment costs of another person, so will have to raise their prices to cover them. Those who have never employed anyone else may not know the real cost of an extra hand.

Where there needs to be full-time cover that could mean even more costs.

It is all very well to complain about posters pointing out the negative possibilities, but if no-one pointed them out they could come as a shock when prices go up and convenience goes down. Then we would hear complaints that people (like the small employers who have posted on here, who know what they are talking about) were taking advantage of the change in hours to raise prices for their own greed.

The idea (in theory anyway) is great, but the dangers need discussing too.

for most people and also employers, this 4 day week idea won't work.

there will always be people that it would suit, but at the moment, not all that many I should think.

also, most only want an 8 hour day at most.

When I clicked on this thread, I got a GN pop-up 'How to find work over 50'.

Does anyone else remember the ideas floating around a few years ago about us all being able to retire at 50 or 55 on large pensions?

Ooooh! Here is a ready-reckoner calculator for the cost of an employee. You put in the hours and the hourly rate, it adds the other costs and tells you how much it really costs. For each extra employee, a business has to make at least that much extra to make it worthwhile, and that is not just in turnover.
www.accountingservicesforbusiness.co.uk/calculators1/true-cost-of-an-employee/
I am going to put a few figures into this and see what comes out!

Very interesting. The UK average years wages are about £25,000, which actually cost an employer £46,146 (and 61 pence)

My DS and DDIL have both done compressed hours in their time. At present both work full-time hours, one over four days and the other over five days flexitime, and between them they can sort out their childcare and the school run. It won’t suit every worker, or every employer, but it can be a very useful option for both.

I can see the logic of what you’re saying ilovecheese it’s whether it works in practice.

Since I stopped work, I don’t spend more. I spend considerably less. Those extra days haven’t equated spending more on food, clothes, leisure activities. It isn’t that I’m hard up. I just don’t want any more of those things than I had before.

In fact because I have time to buy what I need I don’t buy things I don’t need but bought just in case I needed them and didn’t have time to get them.

So I’m not sure your theory works. Sorry. I’m happy to see some proof though. ?

As far as I can see, it could mean prices go up. Those people working fewer hours for the same money will find that they have to spend more on certain things, so they will get a second job (if they can find one) for the other three days to boost their income.

As has already been said by some posters, it very much depends on the nature of the business. Mr. S. has very recently retired and we've closed down the retail section of our business.

In retailing, where your shop was open 5.5 days a week it would be impossible for us to employ staff for a 4 day week, on the same pay they were getting for 5.5.

Many years ago I read about a sociological study that was done in the 60's I think. A factory owner gave his staff 2 options. The first was to receive an increase on their hourly rate and to work the same number of hours therefore being better off. The second was to receive the increase and reduce the number of hours they worked so they could reduce their working week but be no worse off financially.

The majority opted for the second option which was a surprise to the factory owner as he assumed the majority would prefer to be better off financially rather than have more free time.

That's very interesting Smileless2012 I wonder if the factory owner was himself only motivated by money and therefore assumed that so was everyone else.

Regarding the 4 day week, I just don't think we should automatically look for the negatives in an idea because it sounds new or a bit radical, or it comes from a person we don't agree with on other things.
I don't agree with Michael Gove on most things but I think his idea of banning puppy farms is a good one. (not so good for the puppy farming businesses though)

The minimum wage was resisted strongly because it was thought that would increase unemployment, but it didn't.

Nothing wrong with having ideas and giving them a try.

Ilovecheese, as I posted earlier I can see this working on big production lines, and manufacturing business were it is costly to not be productive 24/7.

I have an open mind on most things, having said that I know my business and the trades it deals with, and in my opinion it would be extremely difficult to put into practice for us, probably verging on the impossible.

I know several teachers who already struggle fitting the curriculum into 5 schooldays, and work well into the evening each day on preparation and marking. I would be interested to hear from any experienced teachers or retired teachers on here how they think it would work for the education system.

Who/what/where the 4 day week can be applied is not clear cut.

If a worker has a 5 day week and it is reduced to 4 days unless the reduction in days is pro rata in both pay and hours the cost to the employer is a 20% increase in wages and 20% loss in production time. That is for existing staff but the employer may well have to employ more staff and that obviously incurs even more cost.

How a business operating a 5 day week can suddenly pay a 20% increase in wages to existing staff , suffer a 20% loss of production time and possibly have to hire extra staff will lead to a lot of businesses closing surely.

There is no one model suits all and that applies to the gig economy / zero hour working time. Not everybody wants a contractual employment but it is assumed by many they all do.

Sometimes in life you have to be careful what you wish for in my opinion.

An ill-thought out idea?

A very ill thought out idea , cannot be compare to the objections to the minimum wage. As for giving ideas a try !

I heard Frances O'Grady moot this idea on the BBC news the other day and of course it's a great idea. I did also read that a part of Sweden, I think, gave it a trial but found it just wasn't sustainable and hard to put into practice, unfortunately that seems to be the reality. I don't disagree with the main thrust of her argument but it would depend on the nature of the business ast to whether it could be put into practice, and just how can solutions be found for better work conditions for employees of say Amazon? One of the richest men in the world presides over an organisation where toilet breaks are timed and have to be taken in the small window of 2 minutes

Artificial intelligence (AI) will make a huge difference in all aspects of life in the coming years that will affect everyone. By example to that, we are already witnessing the development of driverless cars that may well be available for purchase by the early 2020s.

In industry, AI is already becoming predominant in manufacturing and especially in distribution centres where automated pickers and pallet handling are already replacing manual workers. The pace of this AI transformation will increase as computer professing becomes smaller and evermore powerful bringing a situation where far fewer workers will be required to make far larger profits especially in multinational companies

The above is the debate that the TUC has brought forward, for those profits will increase the inequality in society with the executives receiving ever larger salaries from those profits while competition for the reducing number of jobs will bring down wages.

Working shorter hours or four day weeks will mean that employment availability may remain more stable with the added costs being paid for from the extra profitability that AI brings to companies heavily engaged in that technology.

The alternative will be reducing wages which will require state subsidies to make a living income for families and eventually full state support as AI reduces overall employment availability throughout society.

That is the discussion the TUC has opened up this week

It would perhaps work in some industries and not others. Maybe some jobs could be done in four days with longer hours on those days. I think they call it "compressed hours".

Melanieeastanglia the thinking is that AI will mean that less hours will be required to be worked by employees to produce the same productivity as now in many industries.

The choice for any society will be fewer workers working the same hours as now, or the same number of workers carrying out the same hours as now.

In short, better sharing of the profits AI brings or far higher state support for those on very low hours and poor wages or even unemployed.

Did the TUC mention whether all the companies involved in the 4 day week, would actually all work the same 4 days? Could be problematic if some decided to not work Fridays and others decided to have Wednesday's off. It would impact on logistics, admin, finance, deliveries between companies. Needs another coat of looking at.

Apologies, the above should read the same number of workers carrying out fewer hours than now

Chewbacca, ii could mean flexible working shifts or what is known as rolling weeks which is a system of work already carried out extensively in the Road Haulage/Distribution industry.

That working i described in an earlier post in this thread.

But grandad, how can "the added costs being paid for from the extra profitability that AI brings to companies heavily engaged in that technology." work at a hairdressers? Some industries and sections could benefit, many would not. Those that involve a lot of face-to-face interaction between real people would be the losers, turning personal attention of any kind even more into a luxury for the rich than it is already, and splitting society into even more polarisation.

Elegran, Al will not effect all industries at least in the short to medium term. The proposals are for those industries that will be effected by AI within the next few years such ass manufacturing, the transport and distribution industries for example.

Retaining employment in those industries by shorter hours would maintain wages in other professions such as hairdressing etc through less pressure on employment in general