4 Day Week

There are attractive aspects to a 4 day week, OldMeg.

However, open minds consider the impact on all the sectors, they don't plump for it being the gold standard for all because it would suit their own industry. That is what I hear from some posts.

There is nothing to stop it being adopted where it is relevant and workable, but it is being talked about as though it will be move on to be extended to everyone, and we are all going to have full employment, plenty of money and long weekends to relax in.

It is not negative or cynical to suspect that just aint gonna happen. Work (and earning power) tend to expand to fill the space and time available and those who can exploit that get more of both. Or more likely some get more of the work and different ones get more of the earning power. Some groups will do better than others, the predicted trickle-down will stop before it reaches those who need it, and prices rise for all.

True Gilly, small businesses are of no importance ,

"Brilliant ideas" such as this do not have to be well thought out Jalima as they rarely (if ever) effect those who thought of them.

Maybe we should just go the whole hog/ cut to the chase and implement a 3 day week which is where we will all be anyway when JC and his cronies get into power. Closely followed of course by small business like mine going under.

We need to keep an open mind about this. Someone upthread mentioned education. My SiL, a secondary teacher, has opted for a 4-day week already. His subject, English, is now experiencing shortages and is especially marking and planning intensive.

The extra day ‘off’ allows him time to catch up on planning and marking from home. And, interestingly, the school has found it easier to recruit other teachers on a part-time basis. I’m hearing more and more of teachers solving their workload problems in this way.

It is true that some workers, would prefer the option of a 4-day week if they can cope financially. It is certainly not a problem for shops etc. to recruit on a part-time basis especially if that is PT and permanent.

I’ve been retired now for 13 years and even before then quite a few of my team chose to work on a PT permanent contract, usually 4 days. It didn’t mean they all chose the same days but the nature of the work meant there wasn’t an issue.

The joys that await the country if Corbyn becomes the PM, Union power will be back,

Apologies Grandad but I'm afraid that your addressing as usual only the road haulage industry. There are other industries apart from haulage! Your explanation of a "rolling week would not work in the financial sector, for example, unless all companies worked on the same, mutually agreed days. It would not work in the retail sector, healthcare, manufacturing, education....... unless all companies agree that they would be available to trade and be able to communicate about the multiple aspects of trade on the same days.

Well, I wonder how many who dismiss the shorter hours proposals out of hand, will be in favour of higher taxes and/or reductions in state benefits such as the pensions. Without a doubt, those measures will be required to pay for all the extra employment subsidies for those with little work, and for those with no work whatsoever full unemployment benefits for them and their families.

The choice will be simple.

Those in favour of this seem mostly theoreticians, Utopianists, or those in large firms in the mechanised sectors. Those with reservations are in the service section or smaller manufacturing or retail businesses.

There is a danger that decisions will be made by politicians with no industrial experience, heavy or light, or of the retail or service sector, (which they probably believe is made up of servants) or by captains of industry who by definition are driving big companies with thousands of employees and can redeploy them as they wish.

I can't see it being restricted for long to those industries which can benefit from the AI. Those working in other fields will soon feel victimised if they are working for far less per hour than others, and will demand either shorter hours or a higher hourly rate. The cost per employee will rise, followed inevitably by a rise in the price of the service offered. Productivity will not rise proportionately.

Waiters, waitresses. Small shops, chemists, the list goes on, so much about big business, small businesses are dimissed , of no importance apart from the people who work for them.

Elegran, Al will not effect all industries at least in the short to medium term. The proposals are for those industries that will be effected by AI within the next few years such ass manufacturing, the transport and distribution industries for example.

Retaining employment in those industries by shorter hours would maintain wages in other professions such as hairdressing etc through less pressure on employment in general

But grandad, how can "the added costs being paid for from the extra profitability that AI brings to companies heavily engaged in that technology." work at a hairdressers? Some industries and sections could benefit, many would not. Those that involve a lot of face-to-face interaction between real people would be the losers, turning personal attention of any kind even more into a luxury for the rich than it is already, and splitting society into even more polarisation.

Chewbacca, ii could mean flexible working shifts or what is known as rolling weeks which is a system of work already carried out extensively in the Road Haulage/Distribution industry.

That working i described in an earlier post in this thread.

Apologies, the above should read the same number of workers carrying out fewer hours than now

Did the TUC mention whether all the companies involved in the 4 day week, would actually all work the same 4 days? Could be problematic if some decided to not work Fridays and others decided to have Wednesday's off. It would impact on logistics, admin, finance, deliveries between companies. Needs another coat of looking at.

Melanieeastanglia the thinking is that AI will mean that less hours will be required to be worked by employees to produce the same productivity as now in many industries.

The choice for any society will be fewer workers working the same hours as now, or the same number of workers carrying out the same hours as now.

In short, better sharing of the profits AI brings or far higher state support for those on very low hours and poor wages or even unemployed.

It would perhaps work in some industries and not others. Maybe some jobs could be done in four days with longer hours on those days. I think they call it "compressed hours".

Artificial intelligence (AI) will make a huge difference in all aspects of life in the coming years that will affect everyone. By example to that, we are already witnessing the development of driverless cars that may well be available for purchase by the early 2020s.

In industry, AI is already becoming predominant in manufacturing and especially in distribution centres where automated pickers and pallet handling are already replacing manual workers. The pace of this AI transformation will increase as computer professing becomes smaller and evermore powerful bringing a situation where far fewer workers will be required to make far larger profits especially in multinational companies

The above is the debate that the TUC has brought forward, for those profits will increase the inequality in society with the executives receiving ever larger salaries from those profits while competition for the reducing number of jobs will bring down wages.

Working shorter hours or four day weeks will mean that employment availability may remain more stable with the added costs being paid for from the extra profitability that AI brings to companies heavily engaged in that technology.

The alternative will be reducing wages which will require state subsidies to make a living income for families and eventually full state support as AI reduces overall employment availability throughout society.

That is the discussion the TUC has opened up this week

I heard Frances O'Grady moot this idea on the BBC news the other day and of course it's a great idea. I did also read that a part of Sweden, I think, gave it a trial but found it just wasn't sustainable and hard to put into practice, unfortunately that seems to be the reality. I don't disagree with the main thrust of her argument but it would depend on the nature of the business ast to whether it could be put into practice, and just how can solutions be found for better work conditions for employees of say Amazon? One of the richest men in the world presides over an organisation where toilet breaks are timed and have to be taken in the small window of 2 minutes

A very ill thought out idea , cannot be compare to the objections to the minimum wage. As for giving ideas a try !

An ill-thought out idea?

Who/what/where the 4 day week can be applied is not clear cut.

If a worker has a 5 day week and it is reduced to 4 days unless the reduction in days is pro rata in both pay and hours the cost to the employer is a 20% increase in wages and 20% loss in production time. That is for existing staff but the employer may well have to employ more staff and that obviously incurs even more cost.

How a business operating a 5 day week can suddenly pay a 20% increase in wages to existing staff , suffer a 20% loss of production time and possibly have to hire extra staff will lead to a lot of businesses closing surely.

There is no one model suits all and that applies to the gig economy / zero hour working time. Not everybody wants a contractual employment but it is assumed by many they all do.

Sometimes in life you have to be careful what you wish for in my opinion.

Ilovecheese, as I posted earlier I can see this working on big production lines, and manufacturing business were it is costly to not be productive 24/7.

I have an open mind on most things, having said that I know my business and the trades it deals with, and in my opinion it would be extremely difficult to put into practice for us, probably verging on the impossible.

I know several teachers who already struggle fitting the curriculum into 5 schooldays, and work well into the evening each day on preparation and marking. I would be interested to hear from any experienced teachers or retired teachers on here how they think it would work for the education system.

That's very interesting Smileless2012 I wonder if the factory owner was himself only motivated by money and therefore assumed that so was everyone else.

Regarding the 4 day week, I just don't think we should automatically look for the negatives in an idea because it sounds new or a bit radical, or it comes from a person we don't agree with on other things.
I don't agree with Michael Gove on most things but I think his idea of banning puppy farms is a good one. (not so good for the puppy farming businesses though)

The minimum wage was resisted strongly because it was thought that would increase unemployment, but it didn't.

Nothing wrong with having ideas and giving them a try.

As has already been said by some posters, it very much depends on the nature of the business. Mr. S. has very recently retired and we've closed down the retail section of our business.

In retailing, where your shop was open 5.5 days a week it would be impossible for us to employ staff for a 4 day week, on the same pay they were getting for 5.5.

Many years ago I read about a sociological study that was done in the 60's I think. A factory owner gave his staff 2 options. The first was to receive an increase on their hourly rate and to work the same number of hours therefore being better off. The second was to receive the increase and reduce the number of hours they worked so they could reduce their working week but be no worse off financially.

The majority opted for the second option which was a surprise to the factory owner as he assumed the majority would prefer to be better off financially rather than have more free time.