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Northern Ireland and Brexit

(364 Posts)
MaizieD Sat 29-Sept-18 10:42:25

An Irishman tries yet again to explain the huge Brexit problem with NI. In response to yet another airy dismissal by Boris Johnson:

Start

Patrick Kielty @patrickielty
And please.... please don't tell me it's "our money" or that the UK government would have done it anyway because I can't be bothered to take you by the hand, lead you to a corner and explain simple things in words of one syllable

1. Northern Ireland is made up of a majority of Unionists (as in the Conservative and Unionist Party) and, believe it or not, a rather large minority of Nationalists (as in Irish Nationalists)

2. These Irish Nationalists don’t see themselves as British but rather inconveniently as Irish (who knew?)

3. For over 30 years we killed each other because of these differences which means Northern Ireland is nothing like Camden or Westminster.

4. The Good Friday Agreement ended that violence by the following devious magic - Unionists were guaranteed that Northern Ireland would be part of the UK until the majority voted otherwise.

The Irish was border was removed and the island linked so Nationalists could pretend they were already living in a United Ireland (yes, Tony Blair did slight of hand much better than you)

5. Some of these Nationalists then accepted being part of the UK as their day to day lives were essentially Irish.

6. This cunning plan was sold to us on the basis that we were all part of the EU therefore fixation on nationality was so last World War.

7. Implementing the Good Friday Agreement was torturous (think Brexit with actual bombs, not metaphorical suicide vests) but we finally made peace. Yet 20 years later NI remains a divided society.

8. Thanks to your glorious Brexit vision Northern Ireland will become more divided as some form of economic border checks will become part of daily lives.

9. If those checks take place between NI and Ireland, the Nationalists who were once happy being part of the UK will change their mind.

10. If they take place in the Irish Sea some Unionists will be livid. However they'll still support being part of the UK (the clue is in the Unionist bit)

11. Your Brexit lies have opened a Pandora’s box for Northern Ireland. It's one reason why the majority of people in NI voted to remain in the EU (almost as if they knew more about the fragile equilibrium of their politics than you)

12. Barely mentioned before Brexit, a border poll is now inevitable thanks to your monumental ignorance.

13. When that poll is eventually held the Nationalists who were once content being part of a Northern Ireland within the UK and EU will vote to leave the UK to feel as Irish and European as they did before Brexit.

14. The poll will be much closer thanks to your Brexit folly and could easily be lost by Unionists, breaking up the UK.

15. Any break up of the Union will be your fault (a tad inconvenient as a member of the Conservative and er, Unionist party)

16. The EU is not responsible for your blundering lack of foresight. Like most people in Northern Ireland they were happy with the status quo.

17. By the time the penny drops that you can’t preserve the Union you want without the one you don’t, it will be too late.

18. You will be remembered not as the Churchillian visionary you delude yourself to be but the ignoramus who triggered the break up of the UK.

19. If there’s any justice all this will come to pass when you're Prime Minister so you can finally swim in the constitutional sewage you've created (though we all know you’ll be in Nice with your trotters up)

20. Meantime, if you’re so concerned about keeping Northern Ireland totally aligned with the rest of the UK where’s your support for our same sex marriage and women’s right to choose? Your silence is deafening.

End

In a nutshell, so to speak grin

jura2 Thu 11-Oct-18 12:56:28

paddyann- I am not actually, and never have been, against Independence for Scotland- as such. But pro Union- as I feel we are stronger together. Just like the EU in fact.

Currently, if there is a hard Brexit or No Deal- than I think we have gone beyond the Union - and that Scotland would have every right to want independence. Did not express myself very well.

MaizieD Thu 11-Oct-18 10:35:07

l genuinely believe that NI's problems are not rooted in the version of genuine Christianity mooted by her.

It could almost be said that you are confusing Christianity with religion here, mcem

And how does one distinguish 'genuine' Christianity from other sorts? It seems like the 'What is real Socialism?' question all over again

paddyann Thu 11-Oct-18 00:37:38

Why would you be against Scottish Indeppendence,its unlikely a free Scotland would infringe on your lifeJura2 Were you also against other countries gaining their freedom from Westminster rule or is it just us ? I can tell you that none of the countries who have gained their independence have ever wanted to return to being (over) ruled by a majority of English Mp's who know little of their country or the people in it.We only want what is a normal right to rule ourselves .

mcem Wed 10-Oct-18 23:44:15

Maizie without in any way criticising the post by B9 l genuinely believe that NI's problems are not rooted in the version of genuine Christianity mooted by her.
Sadly, I think it's naive to believe that daily prayers of conciliation and forgiveness, recited in every school etc might disentangle the complicated strands of Irish history.
How the NI question could have been virtually ignored until very recently is beyond understanding.
I repeat what I 've said on another thread, that this insoluble problem was one of the main reasons I voted to remain.

jura2 Wed 10-Oct-18 19:36:24

I've always been against Independence for Scotland- but now, I just could not blame any of them for voting for it.

varian Wed 10-Oct-18 18:54:28

The DUP has stepped up the pressure on Theresa May over its demands for Brexit, by briefing that it could vote against this month’s budget if the prime minister breaches the party’s red lines on the issue at next week’s EU summit.

The threat – which could in theory topple May, or even bring down the government – has not been made publicly, but was briefed to the BBC and Sky News by sources in the Northern Irish party.

According to the reports, if the DUP feels May has given away too much at next week’s crunch meeting in Brussels, the party could withdraw the support of its 10 MPs for the vote on the budget, thus risking it being defeated.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/10/dup-may-vote-against-budget-if-theresa-may-gives-away-too-much-in-brussels

MawBroon Wed 10-Oct-18 17:18:52

Not denying in any way what you say about drugs Trisher so not sure why this was addressed to me confused

MaizieD Wed 10-Oct-18 17:15:20

B9 the NI problem is actually less about religion and more about culture and history

But you can't divorce religion from Irish culture and history.

trisher Wed 10-Oct-18 10:10:23

MawBroon drugs and crime have always been closely linked to the conflict, some of the young men 'kneecapped' were involved in dealing.And the proceeds of crime funded some of the activities.

MawBroon Wed 10-Oct-18 09:28:24

mcem Tue 09-Oct-18 22:25:41
B9 the NI problem is actually less about religion and more about culture and history

So right mcem
A Northern Irishman tells the story about a man stopped at a crossing point in Belfast during the troubles.
“Catholic or Protestant?” was the question
“I’m an Atheist” he replied
“Ah, but are ye a Protestant Atheist or a Catholic Atheist?”

jura2 Wed 10-Oct-18 09:23:20

... a relative who lives on the border says it currently has a lot to do with drugs smuggling.

paddyann Tue 09-Oct-18 22:30:44

Religion was interlinked with civil rights B9exchange ,right up until recent times,the 70's catholics didn't have the same rights as their protestant neighbours.As I stated before this is how NI was engineered by Westminster by the settlements of Scots protestants and orangemen .Most right minded folk can see now that it was wrong but it has gone on so long that the hatred and bitterness will never completely disappear.
The DUP/conservative alliance has given the fanatics a voice again and if the border is re established there will without doubt be trouble.

mcem Tue 09-Oct-18 22:25:41

B9 the NI problem is actually less about religion and more about culture and history.

jura2 Tue 09-Oct-18 21:33:46

oh to be a fly on the wall ;)

trisher Tue 09-Oct-18 20:58:36

Fennel grin Now can we look forward to the Conservatves and the DUP falling out? Do you suppose Arlene and Mrs May are negotiating how much more it will cost to keep the DUP on side?

Fennel Tue 09-Oct-18 20:27:10

Rather unkind but the truth!
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2018/oct/08/steve-bells-if-arlene-foster-out-of-step-with-dancing-queen-may

jura2 Tue 09-Oct-18 19:43:00

The DUP is getting quite angry now- and Raab made a terrible mess of today in the House of Commons. He is totally out of his depth.

B9exchange Mon 08-Oct-18 23:39:51

I have no answers, but I cannot understand how people who claim to be members of a Christian church, whether protestant or catholic, can use their religion as an excuse for their hatred of each other. The whole point of the Christian religion is we are told above all else 'to love one another as I have loved you'. Forgiveness is also required of every single Christian. The prayer we were given to use asks 'forgive us our sins as we forgive others'. Hatred and enmity have no part in Christian life, no matter how you have been treated in the past. It isn't easy, of course not, but we are promised that we don't have to go through it alone.

I have just spent the day in Coventry. Following the bombing of the mediaeval Cathedral in 1940, Provost Howard had the words ‘Father Forgive’ inscribed on the wall behind the Altar of the ruined building. The people of Coventry decided on reconciliation instead of hatred, they have developed close ties with Germany.

I especially liked the prayer for reconciliation which is prayed each week:

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

The hatred which divides nation from nation, race from race, class from class,
Father, forgive.

The covetous desires of people and nations to possess what is not their own,
Father, forgive.

The greed which exploits the work of human hands and lays waste the earth,
Father, forgive.

Our envy of the welfare and happiness of others,
Father, forgive.

Our indifference to the plight of the imprisoned, the homeless, the refugee,
Father, forgive.

The lust which dishonours the bodies of men, women and children,
Father, forgive.

The pride which leads us to trust in ourselves and not in God,
Father, forgive.

Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if that prayer was said in each school in NI each week, and in each Church?

Grandad1943 Mon 08-Oct-18 20:10:35

And what would those Conservatives say when the unionists in Northern Ireland began attacking the British mainland for "selling them out"

As Jerry Adams stated a few months back "the gunman have not gone away, they have just gone quiet".

varian Mon 08-Oct-18 19:13:54

Most English Tory voters would be happy to see UK break up as price of Brexit, survey suggests - Politics live

www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/oct/08/labour-and-tory-mayors-unite-to-demand-they-take-back-control-of-regional-spending-after-brexit-politics-live

This is appalling. Whatever happened to the Conservative and Unionist Party?

Fennel Mon 08-Oct-18 19:10:59

ps but how did we get onto this from the OP about Northern Ireland Brexit and the Irish border?

Fennel Mon 08-Oct-18 19:08:53

A recent report shows that France his starting to have the same problems as the UK with medical services:
www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2018/10/08/rendez-vous-medicaux-2-jours-pour-un-generaliste-7-semaines-pour-un-ophtalmologue_5366495_4355770.html

jura2 Mon 08-Oct-18 17:15:05

Well, yes, my sentiments entirely.

GillT57 Mon 08-Oct-18 17:11:21

The irony of course jura2 is that some of the Brits living in Spain voted for Brexit, based on the crap carefully balanced stories they read in the Daily Mail, so are we to assume that there will be plane loads of elderly Brits coming back to UK with no money, having sold their homes for a pittance? If they voted to leave they can bu**er off as far as I am concerned! I saw a news report once, interviewing Brits in Spain, they voted for Brexit because UK was 'full of foreigners'.....grin you couldn't make it up, could you?

jura2 Mon 08-Oct-18 15:35:38

Exactly GillT - some people have second homes in the UK, some modest, some not at all. Some have no 2nd home, but massive top of the range main house, some I know have both ... Many in France have bought small very modest places for the location, etc. Just plain daft to accuse all second home owners of being wealthy and selfish.

In our case, we have a second home indeed - a small flat in a non-touristy part of the UK, which we love. It was part of the very careful planning, just 'in case' - as we felt it was massively important to have something to fall back on if all goes t*ts up for some reason. Never ever could we imagine what would happen with Brexit- that is for sure.

We have several friends who have bought in France, and 2 in Switzerland, very modest and in a cheap part (yes - it does exist) to retire to - but like you Gill- have had to cancel all plans due to uncertainty and due to exchange rate.