Scottish Independence

Which is good, as Scotland has been part of the UK for hundreds and hundreds of years.

I wonder what you count as 'hundreds and hundreds of years', lemon?

If the majority of people in Scotland had voted for independence they would have it. But they didn’t. It seems that when referendums don’t give people what they want, they want to keep throwing the dice until they get a six! For goodness sake why not tell them to push off and stop the whinging! Can’t bear to listen to it all. Brexit, Scotland, everyone has got a gripe!

Perhaps Westminster is giving far too much money to Holyrood then.....Free this, free that, aren’t you the lucky ones up there in Scotland.
The truth is, the SNP, when first new and shiny, piqued everyone’s interest, oh they would do this, that and the other and all would be marvellous.Except it isn’t.
I don’t think there is any appetite from all I have heard and seen for Scotland to leave the UK, so I think the Independence dream is dead.Which is good, as Scotland has been part of the UK for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Can you, who doubt the truth of these FACTS, show me any evidence to the contrary?

Ah the echo chamber of Facebook. Your feed will only reflect your interests. However I'm sure it made you happy regardless of the truth of it.

Copied from my facebook feed today:

"Was listening to the radio quite a bit today, and a couple of things I didn't know jumped out at me.

1) Since 2006, (ie roughly the time the SNP have been in power in Holyrood) road deaths in Scotland have halved. HALVED, that's a pretty substantial improvement and a lot of lives saved, yet I have never heard about it before today.

2) In Scotland, those seeking IVF treatment get the full NICE recommended level of 3 rounds of treatment. In the rest of the UK they are unlikely to get more than 1, if they get any at all. (Having stated this the presenter went on to talk about the problems for "UK" people seeking treatment and not getting it.

What struck me about both of these things was that they were throw away bits of information on news items, no highlighting of these facts, no focus on how or why Scotland was doing so well in relation to the rest of the UK.

Other recent throwaway facts were about how we have lower unemployment, better exports and better growth than the rest of the UK, that NHS A&E targets may be being missed by a single percentage point, but they massively outperform other rUK area, but up to 40%.... (that's right, 40% higher target and performance in getting you seen and treated in A&E within 4 hours). ..... and there are many other little known successes out there.

Yes you can quite legitimately be unhappy about many things that could be better, but when you actually look at it, in rUK, many of the same things are way worse."

The amount paid to Scottish farmers has decreased year on year, but it has still been a Godsend, especially in years like this when many people will struggle for winter feed because of the strange weather patterns in the early part of the summer.

The two amounts of money should not be confused. One was the regular payment which was reducing but the payment method switched from Westminster to Holyrood, who then had an IT problem so many payments were late.

As Granny23 explained, there was also a sum of money meant to bring Scottish farmers up to the same average as other European countries, but when it was paid to Westminster, the UK Government decided to give it to other parts of the country as well.

It's interesting, because Welsh farmers were, I believe, told that EU subsidies would be decreasing - this was about 3 years ago and before the referendum.

The country’s extensive livestock sectors were particularly vulnerable to shifting economic priorities in the European Union, said Andrew Slade, the Welsh Government’s director of agriculture.

Budgets for the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) would continue to shrink and farmers needed to modernise to cope with the coming changes

I think many of them voted for Brexit.

Yes most have been received unless - in a very few cases - there is a dispute about the amount due. This year the vast majority of farmers are receiving the money early. The fine was not imposed because it emerged that the Scottish Government had done its best to rectify and mitigate the problem. None of the poorer tenant farmers in the north-east of Scotland will be better off out of the EU. They have known that from the start.

Even when the funds were earmarked, there were problems getting them to the right people:
THE Scottish Government has escaped a multi-million pound fine after a deadline for getting European subsidies payments to farmers was extended.

The National Farmers Union Scotland have welcomed the move, but said that there should be no further delays in paying the subsidies.
The Scottish Government had been facing fines of up to £125 million after problems bedevilled the new IT system set up to get money to farmers.

The Herald two years ago.
Have they received these subsidies now?

In the meantime, what happened?

If there was a second Scottish referendum 60% of Scots would now support remaining in the UK.

"Scots would vote against independence by a wide margin if they were asked whether to leave or remain in the United Kingdom, a landmark poll has found. The poll’s release comes as Nicola Sturgeon and Theresa May are set for showdown talks, with the UK speeding towards an uncertain Brexit conclusion."

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-60-of-scots-would-back-remain-in-new-scottish-independence-vote-1-4832164?utm_campaign=The%20Scotsman%20-%20Daily%20RSS&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=67660690&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9ZUe8Bgl71BkhUkv1PwmkIB94tKnsPc8ZCj954pPmM_ednmJi9eO9nURQiMBDF652-YcqhiATURz_NAENF1eBMiBMZQA

I remember that well, Granny23. The Scottish farmers are still in disbelief that the Westminster Government shared the money across the whole of Britain when it was meant to help the struggling northern hill farmers with the poorer weather conditions and - in many cases - less favoured land. That's why many in rural areas dread the agriculture regs coming to London. Politicians took advantage of the fact that, although the EU cash was meant for Scotland, it had to be paid through London. Wealthier farmers in the south were not entitled to the money and didn't need it at that time. Indeed the hill farmers north of the border are still owed £160 million as Mr Ewing says.

This may be partly because Quote:

"The long-running row dates back to 2013, when the EU announced moves to redistribute Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) payments more fairly, on the basis of average Euros per hectare.

The EU paid the uplift money to bring Scottish hill farmers up to the average per-hectare payments of all the other EU countries.

However, the decision was made by the UK government to spread the payments across the whole farming sector, based on historical distributions.

The UK Treasury distributed about £30m to Scottish farmers.

Mr Ewing said: "Scottish hill farmers are owed £160m, which the UK government has repeatedly ignored.

"I have been clear throughout that the money was earned in Scotland, and quite frankly should be returned to Scotland."

Scotland now pays more into the EU than it receives back. Since the Eastern European blc has been admitted the regeneration status of much if the UK has been raised resulting in funding being redirected to these countries.

Jane10, if you go on holiday to France, Switzerland and many other countries, you pay tourist tax. I don't agree with much of what you say, but I'm right with you about tourist tax!

Caledonail4 and Granny23 (as always), you speak for me too. I don't always agree with the SNP's policies, and like SueDonim, I think that the North-East as well as the Highlands and Islands (Northern and Western), the Borders and Dumfries & Galloway have suffered from over-centralisation by the current government. However, I would rather have independence than not, and I think that Brexit, which no constituency or local government area in Scotland voted for, is a disaster.

I do want to pay more tax to have a fairer society and better local services. We may be able to choose private healthcare or schooling but there is no way that we can collect our own rubbish or light our own streets. I am therefore proud to be living in a country where income tax has been slightly decreased for the poorest eligible to pay and increased for those with higher incomes, and hope that the end of the council tax freeze will make our local services a bit better.

And the tourism tax?
FOIs in to UK and Scottish govt re WASPI btw. Scotland act sections badly drafted. UK govt say Scottish govt could provide cover until new pension age kicks in. Scottish govt initially said could but then looked for loopholes. General mess. Hope its cleared up soon despite Scottish govt refusing FOI requests on this. It goes on.
No point in trying to share views. We're too entrenched. That's what happens with referendums. If there are ever any more we should have at least 60% before any constitutional change as I believe is the case in other countries.

That's a typical patronising 'townie' view about rural living, Granny23. Are farmers meant to live in towns? What about people who service the tourist industry? Should they all commute from city centres to hotels and reatsiamts every day?

We live rurally because when we moved to this area this was the only house we could afford that was big enough for our family. When we moved to this area we had a church, a shop, a post office and a school. Now we have none of those.

The PO closed down the local post office, which meant the shop was no longer viable. The council has now succeeded, at the third attempt, to close our school. The heart has been ripped out of the area.

We know that emergency services are less available to us but because traffic is less heavy, I suspect response times may not be much worse than in town. This area has also set up a volunteer First Responder scheme, as well. However, hospital services have been cut back, you can no longer have a baby in this area, for instance.

Nicola Sturgeon wanted there to be only two trauma units in Scotland, both in the Central Belt. Grampian fought for and now has a trauma unit, to serve this area.

If the SNP don't want to take care of everyone, be they city or rural-dwellers, then they should be ashamed of themselves.

Yes! but I feel obliged to point out when FACTS are plain wrong. e.g. ^ for local council tax to be allowed to be raised so that health and social care can be implemented as required etc.^

FACT is that the Council tax freeze, having served its intended purpose, is now over. Therefore from April 2019 Councils are free to raise or lower their Council Tax rates as the see fit.

mcem there are facts on both sides!

Caledonail your excellent post include my views too, so you're speaking for 2 Scots.
Granny23 another intelligent and truthful post from you.
Odd isn't it, how some just won't let the facts get in the way of an ill- informed rant?

The SG has "some social security powers including disability and carers’ benefits, Winter Fuel Allowance."

State pension rates and ages are reserved to Westminster.
Please check your facts before posting.

The Scottish government for whatever reason doesn't use all its powers. They could have sorted out the WASPI problem.

The original question was Why do some Scots wish to be independent of Westminster, yet remain in the EU?

I can only answer for one Scot - me - and everyone is entitled to her/his own views as expressed above and elsewhere.

Well, most recently because the thought of direct rule by either of the two main UK parties with their infighting and internal machinations/squabbling (even right now at the point of enormous upheaval) fills me with dread.

Partly, historically, because Scotland has benefitted from membership of the EU, while the UK as a whole wants to give up a better deal with vetos that other countries do not have... and our politicians are still acting as if we are going to be better off out.

And partly because it's only recently that the Scottish Tories dropped their objections to Free Prescriptions - something which has saved lives in my area with impoverished people not having to choose between food, fuel and medicines which their doctor and pharmacist believe will keep them out of hospital.

And while I, like many Scots, think the SNP are getting it wrong in terms of centralisation of emergency services or the much disliked Named Person Scheme, I am canny enough to realise that politicians of all hues sometimes need to realise for themselves the results of their mistakes and sometimes that can only happen at election time. I can change things in Scotland because every vote counts under proportional representation. My voice is lost in the UK as a whole. Sometimes my country's voice is ignored or willfully silenced, as now.

In the meantime I am very proud to belong to a country that believes in helping our young people with tuition fees and in taxing the rich and in proactively mitigating the harsh results of the monstrous bedroom tax and benefit unfairness.

I also like politicians prepared to rail against the disgusting Rape Clause and the disgraceful Waspi speed up.

Scotland would not be ruled by the EU in the way it is by Westminster. We would be a sovereign, active nation with the same say as France, Germany and the Netherlands. We would be offered an equal chance to hold the EU presidency and we and our children would have unlimited personal and business access to 27 countries, many of whose citizens have English as a second language.

I'm talking about Scotland, not the SNP, but I think that party is currently the only party showing strength, stability, consistency and concern for the current and future wellbeing of its citizens.

The Tories could so easily have got Scotland - and the EU - on side for a softer Brexit, but instead we are going through this stupid pantomime of blaming the EU for our own peril and not understanding that the 27 were never going to give this troublesome brat of a country (UK) special favours over Ireland, which is one of their own and happily so.

Half the world is laughing at us and the other half is salivating at the thought of our desperation for trade with them.

Granny23. I know you are a committed and passionate SNP supporter and I respect your choice and hope you respect mine to be the opposite.
The SNP were supposed to carry out a 'listening' exercise with the aim of finding out why people voted to remain in the UK and voted against them in the last Scottish election.
Why not find out why we are so dissatisfied with SNP government rather than post lots of pro SNP stuff that us locals just don't believe?
From my personal point of view I would like: to remain in UK, for there to be less centralisation, for a tourism tax to be allowed for Edinburgh to try to restore some of our infrastructure damaged by tourists, for local council tax to be allowed to be raised so that health and social care can be implemented as required etc.
I wouldn't mind paying more tax if I had more faith that it would be spent more wisely. I could go on but I thought this would be a reasonable contribution to the debate rather than just the usual arguments.