Shemima Begum

I don't do emotional blackmail !

There is no problem with citizens serving prison sentances in the countries where they comit the crimes (so long as there was a fair trial and a non coerced confession, humaine proson conditions etc).
Under normal circumstances I agree with that notanan - but Syria is in utter chaos.
Who would administer justice there? Who decides what is just and what is not and who has committed crimes?
There has been civil war for years with outsiders from other countries pitching in and the country is in mayhem.

Wow way to spectacularly miss the point there Ellan, bravo!

Notanan, I only feel for those who give something to this country------not plot to destroy it !!

"These people" FFS

Shemima wasnt "taken in" Ellan she was a born and raised Brit.

Good god with attitudes like yours is it any wonder that British children who feel like their face will never fit here end up disinfranchised, angry and susceptable to radicalisation?

Why do people disrespect the country that took these people in ??
Yet we have medical staff here from abroad who are on pins because of this Brexit debacle, who could be made to go through all the rigmarole of citizenship to remain in this country-----or else !
I know a paramedic from Transylvania, who's worried and it shouldn't be like this.

Those who are found to support the Jihadi's in Australia are kicked out !

To where if they are Australian?

Or are you infact alking about a completely different scenario?

What precident have we set? Can all the people we have awaiting for deportation just be made stateless and stranded here?

Is whatever country a person is in when they are made stateless automatically responsible for them & is that fair?

Those who are found to support the Jihadi's in Australia are kicked out ! They've got the right idea, though unfortunately the country took in Somali's who've proved to be troublesome particularly in Melbourne so I don't know what their fates will be.

It's so unfair on the people of Oz to have to endure the crime that's caused also the police officers who have to contain the violence. Totally unfair !

The question is not do you or dont you pity Shemima, as an individual.

The questions here are is it right for Britain to bend the rules this far and who DO you think should "inherit" the problem of taking responsibility for persons made stateless.

People are not looking beyond the emotive side of this (She is evil Vs those poor babies) that the HO is getting away without their actions being properly debated.

Countries are not allowed to make people stateless FOR GOOD REASON. You can strip a dual citizen of citizenship. Shamima was not a dual citizen the arguement that she might be able to claim another nationality is not good enough

Think about the consequences of this. There is not enough talk about the consequences of countries bending and breaking this rule (but do NOT conflate tgis issue with removal of passports or not taking prisoners back with sentances left to serve, that is not the same thing)

There is no problem with citizens serving prison sentances in the countries where they comit the crimes (so long as there was a fair trial and a non coerced confession, humaine proson conditions etc). It is oftem right that justice is served where the crime is commited. The prisoners remain citizens of their country and may or msy not be deported when their sentance is served. They remain the responsibility of the country of their nationality

There is no problem with countries denying or removing passports from their citizens if their behaviour has lost them the privilidge of travelling abroad. confiscating or denying a passport is not the same thing as stripping a person of citizenship. A passport is a privililidge not a right. You can lose that privilidge. You are still a citizen without a passport.

These things are distinct from making someone stateless. Stripping people of citizenship is not allowed unless they have dual citizenship so wont be stateless when the citizenship is stripped Britain is bending the rules too far by stripping citizenship from people who may or may not be able to claim another nationality by ancestry, but who have not yet attempted to do so.

There would also be the difficulty of deciding just who had committed war crimes trisher - would Assad also be arrested and put on trial for crimes against his people? He is still shelling areas in Syria - and has been aided by Russia. The situation in Syria is so much more complicated than that in post-war Germany, although some of the top Nazis did manage to escape after the war.

The international community would have to come together with a will and that is probably not going to happen.

Chewbacca I think there is a difference between someone being held in a Syrian prison asking their country to repatriate them and someone held in a refugee camp doing the same. Although in my opinion all western countries should take the responsibility of dealing with their own offenders. Alternatively I suppose they could set up some sort of a judicial system in Syria which would try the offenders, much as was done in Germany at the end of the war. The problem then being that it would be necessary to establish some sort of prison where the guilty could be held.

Chewbacca I did ask in an earlier post what other countries are doing about their citizens who left to join ISIS.
Sun 10-Mar-19 22:55:04

Perhaps posters who live in other countries may know the answers?

She may be British but not English. There IS a difference.
Being English does mean that a person is British too GabriellaG54.
When I defined her as English I meant that she was born in England, therefore English and British, rather than born in Wales therefore Welsh and British etc.

I agree that your passport states that you are a British citizen (and also gives location of birth) - and I do know that she may not have a passport because she used her older sister's passport, although that could have been because she thought she could have been stopped at security because she was only 15.

POGS What a truly horrific situation.

My heart bleeds for those made to suffer under these “torturers”

jura I'm well aware that SB is British! Are you being obtuse or have you missed the point of my post? I was pointing out that, whilst you strongly advocate the UK repatriating her, and other Daesh supporters, to their countries of origin, the Swiss are in no apparent hurry to repatriate their citizens either. I wonder whether that exercises your condemnation as much as the UK's, and other western countries too? Or is it just Britain?

As for her being groomed.... I'm not sure about that, so I'll leave that with you.

Who would not want to foster or adopt innocent little children?

SB is actually dual----being born of a Bangladeshi parent/s making her a Bangladeshi citizen. When she turns 21 she can choose her citizenship either British or Bangladeshi.

Her present statelessness is not illegal against those who enforced it because of her blood-line as until she turns 21 her status, although " dormant " when resident in the UK, is Bangladeshi.

Chewbacca- she is British, not Swiss.

She is also a young woman who was groomed when she was a child.

if she was born in England Gabriella then she is indeed ENGLISH

a year or two on, the Syrians may decide that they have better things to do than maintain these camps and feed these people. Then what?
I think these particular camps are run by Kurds and I think that they need more international help than they are receiving at present.

What are other countries doing about this?
This was reported three years ago:
According to a report to the UN Security Council, nearly 30 thousand foreign fighters were recruited currently in the ISIS ranks. They came from 100 countries around the world including countries that had been untouched by the activity of terrorist groups such as Chile and Finland.

I am still not convinced that these violent women were the majority and it still does not defeat my argument that for our own safety and security it is better that these British ISIS members are in the custody of, or under the surveillance of the British security service than mustering, re-arming and starting again in the Syrian desert.

Monica

" I know some of the women have been active online recruiters, but I think the majority have, as they say, been confined to their homes and domestic duties. That is where ISIS think women should stay."
---

Since '. 2014 ' we have been told of the female ISIS women who most certainly are not stay at home mothers.

There is a female ISIS brigade called the ' AL KHANSAA BRIGADE ' and over the years it has been spoken of until now.

The Yazidi Women and others who were enslaved by ISIS and their wives say the European Women were the worst, most brutal.
-----
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/escaped-isis-wives-describe-life-in-the-all-female-al-khansa-brigade-who-punish-women-with-40-lashes-10190317.html. 2015

" As many as 60 British women are said to have joined the group by last September, with Aqsa Mahmood, the 20-year-old Glaswegian who left her family to join Isis last year, understood to be a prominent figure within the force."
----

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4865326/Female-ISIS-torturer-describes-horrors-inflicted.html

" A female ISIS deserter has spoken of how she would revel in torturing other women in front of their family members during her time in an all-girl jihadist brigade in Raqqa, Syria.

The woman, only known as Hajer, also reveals that the British female jihadists would be the most sadistic torturers, and would use a tool known as a 'biter', reportedly able to inflict pain 'worse than childbirth'.

The 25-year-old was one of the first recruits to join the all-female Al-Khansaa brigade in 2014, a group of women jihadists that has been compared to Hitler's Gestapo."
---

These women would whip women and children because they didn't maybe wear black socks. They were not ISIS fighters wives but the women and children of towns like Raqqa that ISIS took over and whom ISIS had no compunction but to enslave and brutalise at whim.

The women in the AK KHANSAA BRIGADE became known as ' biters ' because of the metal contraption that they used to rip at the skin of women and children , some of whom blead to death.

We have no idea what ANY man , woman nor child has been doing in the name of the Caliphate and that is the problem.

For all we know they are trying to obtain / or have gathered evidence regarding not only the British prisoners but obviously those from other countries too.

I am not accusing Begum of being an abuser of other women and children but I will accuse Begum of knowing and being complicit with what others were doing in the name of the Caliphate and that is something she has already implied in her interviews .