The priest at Lyras funeral

Do you know any gay Catholics maryeliza?

Catholic priest Fr Martin Magill laid Lyra to rest. She didn't give up her faith or deny her sexuality.

It may be doctrine that homosexuals do wrong, but I suspect the church, like most things, recognises a difference in ancient theory and modern day practice.

It may be unspoken but as far as I know, poor Lyra was not damned by the church at her death, or during her very moving funeral service.

I think the cause of her death, the reasons why people want to kill one another, mattered more, to all concerned.

The RC church says clearly that homosexual acts are a sin - not just being homosexual. Therefore as long as your homosexuality stays in your head you are fine so the church says. So if you express your love physically you are sinning. That’s the official position .

It may be doctrine that homosexuals do wrong, but I suspect the church, like most things, recognises a difference in ancient theory and modern day practice.

Oh really? I must have missed the news that they were no longer only blessing straight couples with the sacrament of marraige.

The sacraments are VERY important to catholics. Excluding gay catholics from one of the sacraments, IN MODERN DAY PRACTICE, speaks volumes about the churches modern day opinions

The catholic church like many other organisations is split by this matter. There are Catholic priests who completely condemn Gay people and will not administer communion to them or allow them to worship in their church. The hierarchy is mealy mouthed about it saying they condemn the sin but not the sinner. But gay sex remains a mortal sin and unless you make confession (and true confession requires a commitment to try not to sin again) you cannot take communion. In other words you can be gay but not a sexualy active gay.

And if the church really cares and is changing in practice why isn’t it honest and change its theory? It’s actually very hypocritical to turn a blind eye if that’s what it’s doing. It’s like RC in this country using contraception whilst tolerating the fact that women in strongly RC countries are denied such benefits and often suffer horribly from young and frequent pregnancies

My late cousin was a convert to Roman Catholicism and he was gay, living with a long term partner. At no time did the church deny him holy communion confession or any other sacrament including his Roman Catholic funeral. I can't answer for anyone else, but we as a family were treated with the utmost compassion and respect as was he, both during his life and in death. As a family we're Anglo Catholics not Roman.

maryeliza you are using the death of this woman to air your views on the Church, shame on you.

Don’t be so ridiculous ab. I’m putting my views on here because I think that the church ( in this case the priest) is hypocritical in wanting politicians to work together in harmony when the church refuses to grant equal rights to gay people and casts them as sinners and evil if they are sexually active.

But he was sinning Jab . Not everyone can cope with the contradiction - look how Lyra suffered until she came out to her mother - and that was only a few years ago. It’s no good saying ah well I know they say that but they don’t really mean it - they should make their mind up

It is a bit of a minefield but this (which is American, from Iowa) seems to state that ALL good Catholics should be chaste - ie: not engaging is sex before marriage, because of God seeing sex as the act for procreation.

Chastity is the stumbling block. I am not sure many chaste people exist. Are all Catholics over the age of 16 chaste - really?

waterloocatholics.org/information-for-gay-lesbian-catholics

I cannot be the only one that thinks many young Catholics co-habit and have sex before marriage, whatever their sexuality?

Gays and Lesbians in the Catholic Church

"Many Catholics, including gay and lesbian Catholics themselves, are confused or misinformed about the status of gay and lesbian persons in the Catholic Church. As a result, many gay and lesbian Catholics fail to participate as fully as they can in the spiritual and sacramental life of the Church, and many Catholic communities fail to welcome and embrace gay and lesbian Catholics as fully as they should.

If you are a gay or lesbian Catholic, the first thing you should know is that gay and lesbian persons are always welcome in the Catholic faith community.

A gay or lesbian Catholic who is living a chaste single life is a Catholic in good standing, and is entitled to participate fully in the spiritual and sacramental life of the Catholic faith community.

A gay or lesbian Catholic who regularly engages in sexual activity or is a partner in a committed personal relationship which includes regular sexual relations is entitled to participate in a limited way in the spiritual and sacramental life of the Church.

Catholic teaching makes important distinctions between a homosexual person, a same-sex attraction, and homosexual actions.

The Church affirms the dignity and value of every human being, regardless of sexual orientation. The Catechism of the Catholic Church insists that homo-sexual persons “must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity” (#2358). The U.S. bishops have written: “Nothing in the Bible or in Catholic teaching can be used to justify prejudicial or discriminatory attitudes and behaviors.”

Some Church documents describe same-sex attraction as “objectively disordered.” This is the Church’s way of saying that same-sex attraction tends to seek fulfillment in sexual acts which fall short of the creative meaning and purpose of human sexuality as given by God and ordered to God’s creative purpose. However, the U.S. bishops point out, a homosexual attraction is not in itself sinful, and God does not love a person with a homosexual orientation any less than a person with a heterosexual orientation.

The Church considers homosexual acts “intrinsically disordered.” This is because, contrary to the natural law, they “close the sexual act to the gift of life” and “do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity” (Catechism #2387).

This is the reason why homosexual Catholics, like unmarried heterosexuals, are called to a life of chastity, which limits the legitimate exercise of sexual relations to men and women in a sacramental marriage. It is also the reason why the Church does not recognize gay civil unions as sacramental marriages.

I conclude there will be many 'sinners' in the Catholic church. The majority of them will be heterosexuals. Gay Catholics are in good company.

I imagine most priests KNOW their flock to be wayward and sexuality is but a blip they have to ignore, given it is 2019. How many of those sexuaally active, unchaste 'sinners' confess to their sin?

(The flippin' confession box would need to have a revolving door and seat quite a few at a time and the priest would have to have a dining table and bed in there. He'd never leave.)

In many ways we wear religion as a cloak. Some have a deep faith, others go out of fear or because of tradition. I imagine modern Catholics say their prayers at night but carry on sinning. Aren't we all sinners, according to the church?

We are Day6, but having said that,my experience of the R.C faith has been positive on more than one occasion, when the CofE has at times been wanting!
'In my father's house,there are many mansions'! I find that quite comforting , and for me somewhat sums the whole thing up.

I think it's disgraceful for us to be using the funeral of this ordinary young woman to argue about the rights and wrongs of the RC church's stance on homosexuality.

I think we should all leave off and shut up.

Especially as the thread was opened by a poster who did not seem to have the subject in mind. The thread has been hijacked.

I think this young woman who was a journalist, who presumably believed in free speech and who lived through the trauma of her teenage years, but found a partner and happiness, would be delighted to know that her death and her funeral has triggered such debate.

You're right Gonegirl and I apologise for being drawn into this particular off beam conversation.

GG that’s unfair - in fact the OP came back and said she found my views thought provoking and defended me against accusations of hijacking. I was very moved by Lyra’s letter and the suffering she endured through her teenage years because of the church’s teaching. It seems to me that how a young( or not so young) gay person reacts to the church’s teaching will depend on many factors - family background, community , intensity of religious belief , personality - some will easily be able to cast it aside and be sexually active whilst feeling they are still good catholics. Some will be tormented and feel they are sinning, may give up their sex life or the church. Really suffer like Lyra did. All I’m really saying is it acceptable for the church to be apparently in some places preaching one thing and accepting another regardless of the problems this might cause. And I haven’t hijacked this thread at all - Lyra’s sexual orientation was a fundamental part of her and her work and relevant to discussions on what her legacy might be. I think the DUP accepting same sex marriage woukd be a wonderful testament. The RC church won’t change in the foreseeable I’m sure but if NI legislation did it would send a message that gay people really were equal in society even if not in the church. That’s all really. I don’t think I’ve snything more to add .

more to who she was

Gonegirl The issues that have been raised relate to the original post and are, I think, entirely appropriate People are allowed to express differing opinions even if others, such as yourself, do not wish them to do so. I think it is presumptuous of you to assume the right to tell people to "shut up" and to describe other people's input on the subject as "disgraceful".

Thank you for the link Gonegirl , good to read she is recognised for more than her sexuality

Gonegirl these are issues that SHE was moved to write about so I think it is fitting to acknowledge that it was an important part of her life, and therefore should be remembered not hushed in favour of the more apparently palatable aspects of who she was. She was more than one thing and should be remembered for all that she stood for.

It is the height of disrespect IMO when a new persona is invented for someone upon their death. Her sexuality affected all aspects of her life and her relationships with family and the wider community. It influenced her work too. It is all intertwined and Im sorry but you cannot just pick n chose.

"palatable"???

Explain please.

Perhaps you're right Eleothan. But the thread does seem to concentrate on one comparatively small aspect of her life.

I would love to read the articles she wrote on the "ceasefire babies". Anyone know anything about that?

notanan, I think it might be love rather than sexuality that would have influenced a lot of her life. I'm sure she loved her partner dearly.

Gonegirl - there is a play at The National Theatre called 'The Ceasefire Babies' by Fiona Doyle. Perhaps she reviewed it for the Belfast Telegraph. I'd try there first.