The embarrassment of the Tories

But, presumably, all had signed the OSA.

Oh, yes, I forgot about him, didn't Margaret Thatcher stick up for him and tell them not to be too hard on him?

There was also Clive Ponting (sp) also a civil servant but neither of those leaks were from the NSC - that’s the real issue here

trisher

Yes you are right it’s all a far right plot she British Jews are fine with labour

Honestly it’s just sad you can’t accept facts

This serious leak should be thoroughly investigated. It is not so much about the substance of the leak but about the fact that it happened - a leak from the National Security Council is, as far as I know, unprecedented.

I think the politicians are less trustworthy than any of these public servants.
In the other case mentioned on here from many years ago, it was a public servant who was guilty, not a politician, albeit for the best of motives as far as she was concerned.

Was Edward Snowden a politician?

This should not be glossed over. The guilty party should be identified, sacked and prosecuted.
I agree.
But pointing fingers without proof is not helpful.

So, how would hard left Labour solve these problems *Trisher?

Throw money at them and claim to 'care' whilst bleeding workers dry via their taxes?

We all know sums budgeting is not something Labour does well. I doubt very much that we'd see huge welfare changes under Corbyn because the funds aren't there. I suppose he could do away with our armed forces - that would save his chancellor some money.

In my lifetime not one government has eradicated poverty. Don't tell me Corbyn and co can do it.

Poverty and hardship is not the norm in this country, although we appreciate it exists. Everyone just getting by will have to cough up for him to eradicate poverty. Marxism in action - except, it doesn't work.

Labour (supported by the middle classes now) bangs that drum because it is the only one it can bang to remain viable. (That - and remaining in the EU and supporting open borders.) It is becoming more and more apparent.

The others were civil servants, military and security advisors with very high security clearance. I think the politicians are less trustworthy than any of these public servants.

This should not be glossed over. The guilty party should be identified, sacked and prosecuted.

whodunnit

Who else was there? Or - who knew about the reports and the research that had been done?
Whilst I would not wish to defend any politician (particularly at the moment) it may not have been one of the Ministers at the meeting.
Who else was there, who else had access to the information?

#MissMarple

Day 6 look at the statistics on poverty, on the underfunding of schools, on the waiting lists in the NHS and then explain to me how the right wing are caring and considerate and how well the poor, the disabled and women children have done under the caring Conservatives

This idea of it won't work is just an excuse for those who know they have lost all credibility and embraced right wing ideas.

Ha ha ha - what a sneering assumption from a left winger!

Left = good, Right = bad.

Sorry, but we have moved on. The left and Labour has to keep banging on about a division, in that extreme wealth and extreme poverty are the two norms.

Like I said earlier, the Left needs everyone to think they are oppressed by the rich, which is a total nonsense. And everyone on the right is rich. Again, a nonsense.

It's a crock - isn't it, but Labour needs to keep us thinking we are all nasty people if we do not vote for them.

In truth, Labour needs there to be a poor, so that they can paint anyone not on their uppers with an 'I'm alright Jack' mentality!

The irony is that Labour now attracts the liberal elite, the middle classes, the Islington set - rich people who are very much of the Not In My Back Yard mentality!

It's trendy to pretend you care and support a Marxist party which encourages a 'them and us' mentality. Students lap it up, as we've seen, as do the likes of young capitalists at Glastonbury, cheering a Marxist anti-semitic millionaire and a capitalist millionaire land-owner! You couldn't make it up.

Without division, Labour is doomed.

They need us to think we are oppressed and they are saviours. Most people to the right of labours Marxism are caring and concerned individuals.

Mycatisahacker not all Jews (British or not) are alienated from Momentum. Would you like to post any evidence you have of their racism. Or are you as usual on these threads just regurgitating the media opinion.

My great-grandfather knew Keir Hardy and was a radical activist. I am quite sure about the way he would have viewed the awful state of British politics today.

i think Keri Hardy would be turning in his grave to see the alienation of British Jews from this present momentum racist rabble.

It’s not a philosophy I want to pass down to my children and grandchildren.

I hope for better things and hope labour manages to shake off these vile momentum monsters.

Day6 I don't know where you live but I'm in a Northern town where Labour is certainly still regarded as the working class party. So I can walk around my city and see young people demonstrating about climate change, about the rise of the right wing and demanding socialist policies. I know the history of the Labour party and I know it is closer today to the ideals that underpinned it in the 1940s than it has been for the last 30 years.
I also appreciate the benefits that I gained from a socialist government and the social mobility that resulted from those policies and I would seek to pass the same benefits on to my children and grandchildren.
This idea of it won't work is just an excuse for those who know they have lost all credibility and embraced right wing ideas.

It amazes me how many older people don't recognise the benfits they received when they were younger or how socialism changed this country.

I think most of us are old enough to appreciate the history of the welfare state in the UK Trisher and the way it changed the country.

However, that model, one that worked in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s became unstable and abused in later decades. I am a fan of the welfare state and of our helping the frail, sick, elderly and giving the young a good start. We need to hang on to the principles and the NHS. I would fight for that, no matter which party has power.

It may have been conceived by Labour but the Labour Party of the 1940s bears no resemblance whatsoever to the Labour Party of today.

The Labour Party seems confused about the people it now serves. It tends to ignore working class people in Midlands and Northern towns and cities. Ask them.

Labour cannot keep harping on about past glories. The shape of Labour today would have past politicians and Labour voters like my Dad spinning in their graves.

Urm kettle calling pan or what?

I see you’re still at it Lily65 with your spiteful comments x

“petra, you crack me up, in your camper van, all bought and paid for,motoring round the cheapo places and waving your Union Jack.”

You had a pop at me only a few days ago (but it was nice you apologised when I replied). Do try harder not to be so personal. It really does say more about you!

My upbringing was one of '50s and '60s poverty
Under a system established by a socialist government- "From the cradle to the grave"
It amazes me how many older people don't recognise the benfits they received when they were younger or how socialism changed this country. And their refusal to allow younger people the benefits they experienced is disgusting.
"From each according to his ability to each according to his need" isn't a bad philosophy. "Grab as much as you can and b*** the rest" is

Earlier I didn't know how I felt about the leak. I have given it thought. My conclusion is that it is wrong to leak from a security committee. We need trust so that other counties will give us information: this could destroy that trust.

However, I believe Mrs May's need for control played a part in this. She tried to hide a political decision behind the security screen and must take a share of the blame.

You'll only see poorer children from working class backgrounds using them if their parents are there, enjoying the free pass, or if they are taken in a school party......What?

Bit simplistic day6 but I think I understand what you are trying to say.

Where did you get this from?

no Labour Party is expected, has suggested, or even implied that it will follow a "Marxist" agenda.

Marxism would have us believe it's a 'them and us' system. The poor are oppressed, and we (no Labour) will sort out the oppressor.

The oppressors are the likes of you, dear Gransnet reader, believe it or not. Sigh.

Marxism doesn't allow for familial advantage. Being born to parents , no matter how rich or poor, who encourage their children to do their best is the winning ticket in life's lottery.

Go to any of our free museums. They'll be visited by parents opening children's eyes to the world, even if most children tend to go reluctantly. You'll only see poorer children from working class backgrounds using them if their parents are there, enjoying the free pass, or if they are taken in a school party. I dragged my children to such places, and the libraries and any exhibition or craft fayre near us. My upbringing was one of '50s and '60s poverty, but my parents gave us the encouragement to read, be aware and talk to each other. I was blessed.

Marxism didn't bless me. No one cared about our poverty. Marxism does not take into account background at all. I oppress no one, no one oppressed me. According to many left wingers, those who 'have' are smug. And uncaring. They need to keep that myth going, because then we will all be guilt-tripped into feeling we have to be left wingers.

I 'have' now because of my parentage and my work ethic. No silver spoon, but I do not despise those who had one in adulthood. Those children who suffer may do so because there is no money in the household but money alone does not hold back those who strive to improve their lot. It starts with attitude. (and yes, I am aware of how tough it is to keep going when the chips are down...Labour would have us believe it's the norm. It's not. Many of the poorest children I knew in my working life had splendid parents pushing and encouraging their little ones to do well. Some people cope, some cannot. It has always been the same.)

Virtually everyone has to strive to get on. It is only by the hard work and concern and attitude of my parents that this bread and dripping eating child with only one set of clothes got a decent education - because she was read to, from an early age and had a thirst to know more.

Even those who are well off know that their ancestors had to strive to give their families a better life. Of course some inherit wealth, and have no knowledge of what it is to be needy or poor. One has to hope they pay their taxes and give back, but the man from a poorer background will pay a proportion of his earnings to the tax system too. Overhaul the tax system if needs be, but recognise effort, striving and people working to improve their lot in life.

Our circumstances of birth have always played a huge part in how we'll turn out.

Marxism perpetuates the myth that those who have are selfish, uncaring. The more well off are the enemy.

Marxism promotes the politics of envy and hatred and feels communism solves it and makes things fair. It doesn't. Never has.

"And TG we haven't got to that stage (yet)."

I have a feeling we have with the Tories though Fennel Because of the fixed term parliament (which I have to admit I thought was a good idea at the time) power has been handed to groups like the ERG who are certainly extreme in their right-wing views and have had more control than their numbers warrant.