The embarrassment of the Tories

I agree that the Conservative Party under TM is not the party of old because Brexit and the Chequers plan has taken over completely. I read in the Sunday Times today that nobody appears to be leading the country and that’s just how it seems. We all voted at the last GE for MP’s to represent us in Parliament but are they? It appears they aren’t by voting against any plan and some now wanting another referendum. They’ll be rerunning a GE next. TM needs to realise that you cannot work in isolation by not including other MP’s when it came to the Brexit plan but after all she’s a remainder so I didn’t expect anything else.

" one of our properties" OK.

petra, you crack me up, in your camper van, all bought and paid for,motoring round the cheapo places and waving your Union Jack.

A mountain out of a molehill.
Grief! It's not as if we can't be hacked anywhere by anyone at any time.
The Chinese people's are no more likely to hack us than are the Americans, Australians or Russians.

whodunnit and howdunnit though?
Not by photocopying.

I agree Call re ST. I brought up the case because the police used powers to get the Guardian to handover the photocopied documents so she could be traced. Why is the DT not being similarly treated? Oh silly me ?

Anyone remember Sarah Tisdall - she went to prison for leaking
I remember very well; however, I'd just like to say that I think that Sarah Tisdall, although she did wrong and broke the OSA, probably felt that what she did was morally right - and many others may agree with her.

Exactly, Grandad.
Corbyn, McCluskey et al may hold extreme left views but know that they would never be able to put them into practise in a democratic organisation such as a TU or Parliament.
It's only when a leader has absolute power that he/she is able to impose their views, by force.
And TG we haven't got to that stage (yet).

GracesGranMK3 Quote [I have to agree with you Grandad1943, but using the "Marxist" misrepresentation is an attempt to, yet again, slur Jeremy Corbyn. ] End Quote.

I agree with your above statement 100% GracesGranMK3, and perhaps I should not have used the term in my above earlier post.

The term most used in the Labour Movent these days to describe left-leaning views are Centre Left, Left Wing and Hard Left I believe. Certainly, when I have been taking Industrial Safety Courses at Unite and GMB Union Reginal Centres, I have often heard people in the Labour movement described as above.

Therefore, perhaps Jeremy Corbyns views would be better described as Left or Hard Left. However, Len McCluskey of the Unite Union openly describes his political leaning as Communist, but he does not bring or push those views in his everyday work with members.

I think Maizie's explanation is correct. People identify with their abuser because they are afraid.

Cap doffing is because the wealthy don't just own the physical money, they own the jobs, the houses, the access to food, etc. And they can make you a little better off than the man or woman standing next to you. It is in their gift. The abused feel that nothing they can do will change that position.

But many of today's "abused", those whose lives do not and cannot depend on inheritance are fighting back - just look at the rise in the average age of the Conservative party member. The young, often earning a good salary, have seen what is happening and are voting with their feet.

That's a good explanation MaizieD I have always thought it must be a vague memory of serfdom held somewhere in the subconscious leading people to doff their cap to the Lord of the Manor.

It's Stockholm Syndrome, GGMk3 The condition where a victim ends up identifying with their abuser.

I have to agree with you Grandad1943, but using the "Marxist" misrepresentation is an attempt to, yet again, slur Jeremy Corbyn. By extension, this becomes a slur against a Corbyn led Labour Party. I thought it was time to put this nonsense to bed. Holding "Marxist" views is a perfectly reasonable thing to do as we have seen and no Labour Party is expected, has suggested, or even implied that it will follow a "Marxist" agenda. Interestingly we only have the word. No one has described what that would be.

What has become very clear is that, to the contrary, the Conservative party has become a party of wealth, working to improve only the lives of the very wealthy by making them even more wealthy at the expense of the poor and by using the fascist tactic of setting one group against another.

I cannot believe that there will not be those who have long seen themselves as Conservatives who are not horrified to hear that we have been returned to the widest levels of wealth inequality since caps were doffed to Downton like Lords. We are talking about taking us back to before the first World War. Back to when your income did not matter, your hard work did not matter, your talent did not matter. All that mattered was that you were born into wealth.

Mind you, I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at the above evening dinner or any dinner since with McCluskey and Williams sat both sides of the table.

Many in public life hold both hard left and hard right political views. However, undoubtedly it is how such people carry those views in their everyday working lives and perhaps more importantly within the interactions such people have with others.

By example to the above, Len McCluskey the General Secretary of the Unite Union has always made no secret of his strong Marxist views and how he would wish for a British government to set policy in that direction. However, in 2011 a bitter industrial dispute broke out between British Airways (BA) and its company cabin staff. The dispute dragged on and it was arranged for McCluskey to become involved in trying to negotiate a settlement jointly with the CEO of BA Keith Williams.

Williams had a reputation as being a "hard nosed capitalist" and had been brought in to BA to completely revamp its operations following poor trading results. Against that background, no one on either side of the dispute felt that any settlement would be forthcoming when judged against the backgrounds of both men

However, in less than three days, the same number of meetings and dinner in a very upmarket London restaurant, a comprehensive settlement was brought forward and agreed. It would seem that McCluskey and Williams had put aside their very different views on how the world should be governed, and had instead settled on pragmatism to end the dispute. Indeed it said the two men got on so well in each others company they have remained in contact ever since.

Therefore, it does not follow that because Jeremy Corbyn holds hard left-wing views that any future government led by him will follow a Marxist agenda. Indeed, the present policies of the Labour Party many would argue are very far from that.

As stated anyone can hold hard left-wing or hard right-wing personal political views, but it is how such persons carry those views in their everyday lives that is most important, and it is in that such persons should be judged.

* one of which brought one of our properties *

Seriously really

Yes I am aware that they along with Romania I think are under the EU CVM scheme. I trust that the EU with financial power at it’s disposal will gradually bring these countries in line.

Just as they have done with other countries, closer to home, although corruption was never quite so high.

In my working life I was aware of EU members who tax affairs left something to be desired.

Whitewavemark2
We visit Bulgaria most years. Not staying in hotels but with Bulgarian friends, one of which bought one of our properties in BG so we are very aware of what's happening in BG RE workers rights.
I don't think most of posters on GN are aware of how much power the men with short necks/in sun glasses/ badly made suits with body guards and guns have
Most working people in BG are working in what we would say as 'working below the radar' as they are not registered and not paying tax. This is because they have no faith in the government as to where their tax goes.
I.e. They have no rights.

mycat you will never get a reply to that question, because there isn’t a single country in the world that has ever been a Marxist country. There are different forms of socialist countries, but no communist countries, although some have been described as such. But Marx never described exactly what a post- capitalist society would be like. He indicated that capitalism would destroy itself. But we know that so far he has been wrong. However, climate change may force a change in the accumulation and concentration of wealth. We shall see.

*GracesGranMK3^

You live In Britain right?? If it’s so crap move to a Marxist country. Seriously send us pics and reports

Still waiting for a country where Marxism works?

Please educate us?

Where In the world?

And presumably it’s so wonderful you live there? Or not? Let us know can’t wait

petra aren't you still going down the road trying, oh so hard, to say "if I can I will slur the character of this man and I will find anyway to do it. I will even suggest he will turn the UK into Cuba"?

So he looks at life from a Marxist point of view. We seem to have agreed - no one contradicted me - that this means he believes in a more egalitarian society; he believes in social democracy; and he sees crises that our type of capitalism has wreaked on our society over the last few centuries moving at an every faster pace. But he is a member of the Labour Party - a democratic socialist. The Labour Party have never shown any intention of turning us into Cuba. So what does your little homily about the island prove? Absolutely nothing.

On the other hand I can agree with notentirelyallhere. How about us looking at what the type of capitalism we have had inflicted on us is doing. An article in this weeks Economist - hardly a left-wing pamphlet inciting sedition - is an article headed "Return to Downton Abbey".

It describes how we have come full circle since the time before the wars when how you did in life depended on what you inherited and not what you earned. It depended who you were born to and not on your hard work, skill or ability. The wars were great levelers but the rate of increase in wealth is taking on pre war proportions. For every £100 Britons earn in wages they receive, on average £17 in gifts and bequests and this is at a time when tax is at historically low standards so the churn that keeps an economy going - or certainly one under the most recent style of capitalism - is slowing. The article says that " Inheritance has not played such a big a role in the economy since the 1930s.

This inheritance boom is fueling a sense of unfairness. We now even have a Committee on Intergenerational Fairness - even the government has recognised there is unfairness; it's just got the reasoning wrong. It is not an unfairness between the generations, it is unfairness between those old fashioned worlds of wealth and want.

When you worry about todays Labour Party and it's leader with sympathy for the Marxist viewpoint, just look at how many seemingly well-off people it and he attract and ask yourself why that should be. According to the Economist article "one in 20 British people receives an inheritance worth more than ten years of their net earnings." But those who will never receive this parental largess are left seeing that however well they do there is an unfair divide between them and the children of wealthy parents. With an income only from employment those who might once have found a natural home with the Tories are increasingly feeling as if they belong to the excluded few.

Totally ok

No don’t apologise

mycat I apologise to have confused the issue