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Revoke, Remain, Reform

(151 Posts)
GracesGranMK3 Mon 06-May-19 09:05:44

The more I read, the more I am convinced that people really voted for Remain on Thursday. The one thing those who want Brexit seem to have forgotten is that "democracy depends on the consent of the loser".

Currently, we have Farage commenting about “building a coalition against the people”. For him, "the people" mean less than 52% of the electorate. May sees “the people” as those who will keep the Conservative party in power; Corbyn sees “the people” as those who will put the Labour Party into power. "The people" are actually the whole of the electorate.

It has to be possible for the loser to consent, otherwise, you have the dictatorship-of-the-majority. We currently don’t have a crisis of democracy, as the Leavers keep telling us, but a crisis of legitimacy.

Democratic elections are designed to create uneven votes. It is the losers who maintain democratic legitimacy by agreeing to the outcome. How losers respond to their loss and how institutions, parties, governments, etc., shape the ability of the loser to accept that their loss is legitimate, measures the level of democracy within a country.

Did the losers believe the win was legitimately gained? Did the institutions, the parties, the government ensure the outcome could be seen as reasonable and acceptable? After the election, there was a Neanderthal attitude which tried to bully the "losers" into agreeing; that was never going to work. Without a true acceptance of the vote, you have a dictatorship, not democracy. Being able to accept losing is one of the central, if not the central, requirements of democracy. For the "loser" to do that, conditions must be created which allows them to feel it was a democratic process.

There are good reasons why the "losers" do not believe the referendum was legitimate. "Winners" do not have to believe those reasons to be right or wrong; what they have to be able to do is convince the "losers" of the legitimacy of the vote. Those who still want to leave think a vote is all about who wins; it isn't. It is about both winning and whether you win in a way that those who lose can accept as legitimate. Shouting, calling people names or slurring their characters will not change the "losers" view of the legitimacy or otherwise. It would be better to assess why the vote is not seen as legitimate by the "losers" as, unless we do this, it will always seem, to half the country, to have been an illegitimate vote.

Brexiteers keep trying to appeal to the already persuaded - those who want to leave. How do they think that will change anything? If half of the country cannot be convinced the vote was legitimate enough to be able to agree, we threaten not only our economy, our future and our standing in the world but our fundamental democracy.

Grandad1943 Tue 07-May-19 10:22:41

GabriellaG54, with reference to your post @9:54 today, could please inform me of the deleted post of mine you are referring too, as i have received no emails from GNHQ for a considerable amount of time.

I would wish them to "let me know" on anything i post which they find inappropriate as i could then avoid that "pitfall" again.

GabriellaG54 as you object to my earlier reference to Nigel Farage, I will in future refer him as "The Dear Leader" or "The Great Leader" inline with another part of the world where they relate to their dictator as such.

Now even Donald Trump does not object to that term, being that he has met him while that term is in use.

MaizieD Tue 07-May-19 09:59:23

You're missing the point, GG13. People know about 'shorting' (well, some people do) but what Farage did was deliberately mislead the financial world by publicly conceding defeat for Leave on TV when he actually knew from poll results released to his associates (who had paid the polling company to do this) that Leave was winning. Poll results cannot (by law, I think) be released to the public before the result of the vote is announced precisely to avoid this unfair advantage to traders. Whoever drew up the regulations left a loophole that Farage and his mates took advantage of. One trusts it will be closed before any subsequent votes, be they in an Election or a referendum.

Condoning this on the grounds that any method of making money, cheating or not, is acceptable seems very dubious to me. Insider trading is generally held to be wrong.

The issue of insider tradingis as old as trading on equity markets itself. In all developed markets around the world it is seen as the biggest offense against the ethics of business and is also seen as a potential destroyer of public confidence in the stock exchange. Therefore should be legally regulated.

Insider trading is legal once the decisive information has been released to the public, at which time the insider has no direct advantage over any other investor.

www.lawteacher.net/free-law-essays/trading-law/regulation-of-insider-trading-law-essays.php

Caledonai14 Tue 07-May-19 09:59:20

My guess is , directly or indirectly, that NF's funding is from Donald Trump, who seems to have suddenly lost his objections to coming for a State Visit.

Remember leading Tories tried to persuade him that the people of Scotland loved him so much he should visit his golf courses instead of remaining in London where he might face protests?

I think DT thinks he will now be safe from protest in the south alongside the Queen and/or Nigel Farage. The two men have liked and supported each other all along.

As NF is now leading a party which is possibly going to do well for really negative reasons in the EU elections, I suspect neither mainstream British politicians nor common sense will stop the two getting together and preening during the State Visit.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/12/nigel-farage-arrives-at-trump-tower-in-bid-to-become-first-briti/

www.theguardian.com/global/commentisfree/2016/aug/25/donald-trump-nigel-farage-nationalism-bigotry-ukip

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/03/donald-trump-must-not-meet-nigel-farage-downing-st-accused-laying/

For the record, the policing cost to the UK of having DT up here was far too high in a time of austerity and we definitely do not love the man. Look up Menie Golf course, sensitive dunes and/or climate change if you need proof.

GabriellaG54 Tue 07-May-19 09:58:17

GrannyGravy13
I reported it and their reply just now says that it doesn't breach their guidelines but 'they'll keep an eye on it'.
I have emailed to ask why they deleted a comment by same poster a couple of days ago which contained same words but today it obvs doesn't breach guidelines. ?
Up to them now.

GrannyGravy13 Tue 07-May-19 09:38:48

GabriellaG54

I find the “Heil Fuhrer” comment offensive.

GabriellaG54 Tue 07-May-19 09:33:59

If you have read his comments and find nothing offensive then that's not my problem.
GN will decide as they did with the same remark on another thread.
I reported. It's now up to GN.

GracesGranMK3 Tue 07-May-19 09:15:24

GabriellaG54 I'm fascinated. Which disgusting remarks were those and what have GNHQ had to say about them?

crystaltipps Tue 07-May-19 09:11:47

Brexit party is totally undemocratic, no membership and no voting rights. No manifesto. One man dictatorship. Appeals to a certain demographic unfortunately.

GrannyGravy13 Tue 07-May-19 09:07:30

All this constant rehashing of “hedge funds making millions” overnight on June 23 2016...........take a moment to find out where your Occupational and/or Private Pensions are invested (if you have one).

This type of speculation has always gone on and as far as I know it is not illegal, it is how investments grow!

Grandad1943 Tue 07-May-19 08:41:09

Urmstongran Quote [Bluddy hell!
Farage’s (illegal?) donor is playing at the game at £100k.] End Quote

One hundred thousand would be a considerable amount to the Brexit party. After all, it is a one-person show with Farage making all the decisions and therefore only he needs payment I would think. grin

In that, there are no committees, conferences or other meetings to fund, just Nigel Farage. hmm

GabriellaG54 Tue 07-May-19 00:51:57

Grandad1943
Reported your disgusting remarks.

Mycatisahacker Mon 06-May-19 23:03:46

Donald trump should have a minor bird! Imagine the dirt that tweetie pie could dish

MaizieD Mon 06-May-19 22:56:25

Have you any idea how much it costs to run a political party, Ug?

It's not the amounts which are significant in this case, it's the lack of openness.

And what on earth has 'Fake News' got to do with this? Are you Donald Trump's parrot?

Urmstongran Mon 06-May-19 22:44:20

“....the amount as reported by The Sunday Telegraph was £1.5 million” for ChangeUk (aka the status quo party!)

Bluddy hell!
Farage’s (illegal?) donor is playing at the game at £100k.

You really couldn’t make this up.

Fake news.

All will be revealed in 3 weeks (for those interested in the very much smaller amount).

MaizieD Mon 06-May-19 22:35:08

Change UK funding?

This, from the Wikipedia article about the party:

The group is supported in its aims by The Independent Group (TIG) Ltd (previously named Gemini A Ltd), a non-trading company started by Shuker and registered in England and Wales.[78][79] Berger stated that the seven founders funded the launch themselves.[80][81]

The group claimed that thousands of donors gave small amounts within days of the launch.[81] On 23 February 2019 David Garrard, previously a major donor to the Labour Party, was reported to have given financial support to the group; the amount as reported by The Sunday Telegraph was £1.5 million.[82][83] A "significant" donation to the group was later made by crossbencher Lord Myners, the former City Minister under Labour Prime Minister Gordon Brown.[84]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change_UK

If you go to the wiki article the numbers in the text I've pasted take you to the sources of the statements made in the text. No attempt here to keep their donors secret.

Grandad1943 Mon 06-May-19 22:27:02

Urmstongran, the Brexit Dictatorship party is a one subject matter organisation. Farage knows that the EU parliament elections will in all probability be its/his zenith.

That is why he will not inform on who is funding his political venture until after the above elections when whatever is going on out of sight financially will have taken place and too late to stop.

Of course, in a General Election, he would have to declare his right-wing extream views, that would split those blind enough to have supported him until that point, and he would be wiped out.

Mycatisahacker Mon 06-May-19 22:20:56

Yes who is funding change U.K.?

Urmstongran Mon 06-May-19 22:10:08

Why so quick some of you to jump on the ‘illegal’ bandwagon? NF said on the Sophie Ridge show this morning he will reveal the name of his backer who has donated £100,000 to the new Brexit Party once the EU polls have taken place as otherwise ‘you media people will be camping outside his front door’.

Patience people.
Stop with the conspiracy theories!

Who is funding the Change U.K. party?

Calm down.
?

Grandad1943 Mon 06-May-19 21:12:35

Urmstongran, Quote [We already know that Farage is being funded almost certainly illegally.”

Really?
Evidence please.] End Quote.

The fact that Farage will not declare who is funding his one man dictatorship party is evidence enough to many that something is in all probability "not as it should be."

But of course, to those that blindly follow a dictatorship party that has no real policies even on the Brexit Irish border issue, it is simply "Heil Fuhrer Farage." confused

jura2 Mon 06-May-19 21:12:05

Urmstongran, why do you think he is refusing to name his major donors? Illegally btw.

jura2 Mon 06-May-19 21:10:23

Yes, in Geneva, where WTO offices are, and which he has great knowledge of. Are you denying the facts he exposes- and if so, could you please explain how and why?

Lily65 Mon 06-May-19 21:10:21

There are no need to have digs about Farage. The man is an appalling racist.

Mycatisahacker Mon 06-May-19 21:01:14

The trouble is there are so many so called experts on both sides who are all giving opinions Calling them facts.

My common sense tells me Britain would be ok leaving without a deal and just as fine staying in.

But this uncertainty and mays half in and half out deal will be disastrous.,

And there were lies and misinformation on both sides.

petra Mon 06-May-19 20:55:56

jura2
Your expert on the JOB show is no more a WTO expert than i am.
He is Bryce Baschuk a Multi Media Correspondent employed by Bloomberg in Geneva.
Nowhere in his LinkedIn profile does he mention his expertise in WTO.

varian Mon 06-May-19 20:54:06

This article outlines how hedge fund managers made millions out of June 23, 2016. What it doesn’t say explicitly, but implies heavily, is that Nigel Farage himself made millions. He did this by saying that the Remainers had won, conceding defeat on the evening of June 23rd, whilst being fully aware that it was far more likely that the Leave campaign had won. He could have known this through a raft of private exit polls procured by hedge funds that showed the true state of affairs. As a result, the pound sterling was shorted at $1.50, knowing that it would likely drop to just $1.32 overnight.

Now, Bloomberg’s Business Week does not have the specific proof that Farage did this, or they would have explicitly said so, but they make it seem likely.

thefinanser.com/2018/07/much-nigel-farage-make-brexit.html/