Revoke, Remain, Reform

D’you know what? Us Leavers can’t win!

Not only all the banging on about a manipulated referendum, now very early doors - the digs are in about Farage:

“We already know that Farage is being funded almost certainly illegally.”

Really?
Evidence please.

we currently Trade with WTO rules as a EU member. The UK now wants to just replicate quotas - and this is pie in the sky - it would have to be approved in the next 3 months after leaving by ...

164 countries - many have already said they would oppose or apply very stringent and expensive conditions- the USA, Brazil and New Zealand for a start. The 'cake and eat it with unicorns' idea that we could dictate our terms on WTO is ludicrous- they will indeed want their pound, or a few kilos, of flesh.

Unelected Bureaucrats for sure- and with us having no say, no control, no choice - and certainly NOT getting back control.

I think jura2 it’s not that people won’t listen I think it’s just the disillusionment of many people following the years of austerity and conflating that anger with the EU.

And of course into this gap comes the far right and the far left as we have already seen.

I know neither party wants a GE but I think we will have to have one and a second ref.

You may not like JOB- but the expert on this video clearly explains my comment above.

But of course some people just do not want to listen to those who know the facts

www.facebook.com/theleftbible/videos/1946614332111670/UzpfSTEwMDAxMzgwODEwMzczNjpWSzo2MTc1MzQ5MTIwNTcxNDk/?multi_permalinks=617534912057149&comment_id=617546948722612¬if_id=1557138522338137¬if_t=feedback_reaction_generic

Grandad1943

Thank you.

I am amazed that people still talk about ‘respecting’ Democracy, now we know the truth about the campaign...

But also amazed and flabbergasted that people still think we can gain back control from unelected EU Bureaucrats (???) .. and ‘just’ trade with WTO rules ?. It is clear that anyone who states this has got a single clue about the rules, nature and reality of WTO. They are indeed unelected bureaucrats and will be able to totally name the rules, name the tarifs... and any decision will need the approval of 100s of countries. It is totally delusional we will have any power or say ...

I one hundred percent agree with what you state in your post @ 17:45 today Dinahmo.

Excellent post.

My wish for the future is:

Assuming that we participate in the EU elections I would like to see pro Europe MEPs elected who will support reform of the EU

Revoke Article 50

The government to review systems of PR (unlikely I think)

A General Election (which hopefully would kick the Tories out)

A few years without further discussion about Brexit in the hope that the divisions caused might start to heal. The government have managed to find billions to pay for Brexit which could have been much better spent.

I can't see the Tories and Labour reaching an agreement because as John McDonnell said yesterday the cross party talks were like " trying to enter a contract with a company going into administration" There would be no guarantee that any agreements entered into would be enforced after a change of PM.

As regards the other European countries, despite the march to the right, polls apparently show that a majority of their populations want to remain in the EU. The Europeans don't just think about the economy but about the other benefits, including the long period of peace since WW2.

Very interesting posts op

petra by brexit party I meant UKIP which did indeed get a drubbing.

As I said to Mycatisahacker Whitewave the place to start is where people have complained about how the referendum was run. Not working cross-party might be an area. Also, we might look at what other countries do.

I'm going off the forum for a little while. Writing is very tiring

maizie I think your concern about the democratic process matches my own.

gg3 I’d be interested in exploring what other areas of llegitimacy you see.

I'm not sure we disagree on this Maizie.

I was quoting from Grandad1943's post and perhaps, trying to pull us back on thread. This was the reason I tried to balance it. That does not negate the seriousness of law-breaking but that is, sadly, only one part of why the referendum is seen as illegitimate and it has been legally dealt with. Perhaps I should have just let it go. The one thing I am trying to avoid is the old antagonistic arguments as they don't seem to have got us very far.

Jane10
Your post @ 10.35 Re the Brexit party taking a drubbing.
The Brexit party didn't take part in the local elections.

Yes, many people believe that "the leave Referendum campaign holds many questions in regard to the legality of its operation." but equally many people do not see the remain campaign as giving sound information either.

I think you are conflating two completely different things there, GGMK3. I'm not talking about 'not giving sound information'. I'm talking about using illegal means to influence the vote. Illegality which would have voided a mandatory referendum. We don't need an enquiry; the perpetrators have already been sanctioned and are the subject of police investigation (an investigation which many believe has been deliberately held up).

I just cannot believe in a 'democractic decision' (as cited loudly by many, Remainers and Leavers alike), which turns a blind eye to this.

The Rule of Law is an essential component of our constitution. A constitution which no-one seems willing to defend.

"... but how can you practically do that so the country feels it is a legitimate vote? (Mon 06-May-19 13:34:47)

That is a big question Mycatisahacker and I doubt I am knowledgable enough to answer it fully. The most useful thing is that other countries have and do successfully hold referendums.

The first thing I would suggest is that whatever the outcome, it is mandatory. As you know the last one was advisory but I believe, in order to revoke, set up a system we can believe in and run a new election we would have to make it mandatory so that Parliament must carry it out.

I have suggested a couple of areas that could strengthen any referendum. I have done it by turning what I have seen troubled people into a question and offering an answer - but it is not the answer. Others will know much more about this than I do.

So the first one I looked at is the very narrow majority and the question became "Was it legitimate to use a simple majority for a vote of that will have such an enormous effect on the status quo?" (Most countries would use a supermajority in such circumstances just because of the issues above).

The second looked at the fact that both sides felt they had been sold fake news, exaggerations and lies. The question I put from that was: "Were the electorate legitimately informed by politicians and news outlets." (This one has created a lot of interest in Citizens Assemblies)

Perhaps others can suggest questions and possible outcomes. It's really a case of looking at why people have said the referendum "wasn't fair" at its simplest.

You could be right Grandad .....after all, anything could happen, but I do think both Parties have had a douse with cold water with the council election results.

lemongrove, i can agree with much of what you have stated in your post @ 13:36 today with the exception of the last paragraph.

In that, I do not feel that any agreement will be drawn up between the Labour and Conservative parties on leaving the EU as within the Tory party there is wholesale opposition to having any dealings with the Labour Party and on the Labour side the Conference policy is still paramount.

Although, I have seen that the one large union and several constuency parties are now requesting a one-day recall conference to "review" the Brexit policy.

However, I do not feel that any change to the "General Election first" policy will come about.

I do think that neither Corbyn nor May have the appetite for a GE, they both stand to lose a great deal of support. I am no fan of Mrs May but the circling vultures pushing forward their own manifestos for party leadership is sickening. All those people she sacked such as Patel and Raab sticking the knife in. The behaviour of most of the prominent members of the two main political parties has been nauseating. One good thing that has arisen from this Brexit fiasco is that more people are aware of politicians and of parties and the days (I hope) of voting Tory or Labour because you always have and your family always has is over

Grandad1943 I have tried to take a view from a very different perspective on this.

Yes, many people believe that "the leave Referendum campaign holds many questions in regard to the legality of its operation." but equally many people do not see the remain campaign as giving sound information either.

I am most certainly not suggesting, and I don't think anyone else has either, that we place everything on hold and carry out a judicial review. I really cannot see how that would do more than make the situation worse for a period of time while providing no better outcome.

What I am suggesting is that we call a halt, revoke Article 50 and go back to the status quo, promising to hold a new referendum under proper rules that leave the country feeling they can consent to whatever outcome we achieve.

Legitimacy is being used in a quite specific way in this thread. It isn’t so simple as whether remainers see the vote as legitimate. Political legitimacy is deeply embedded in a countries democracy and without it democracy fails.

Eglantine.... a good, reasoned and sensible post, you should post more on the news and politics threads.

Generally, this ‘legitimacy’ train of thought re the referendum is often used by disgruntled remainers, hoping to overturn the original outcome.
I imagine that over half (at least) voters want the government to ‘get on with it’, as even many remainers do as well, so that we can get back to dealing with pressing problems on the home front instead of concentrating on Brexit.
I would be surprised if there wasn’t a forthcoming deal in the offing, as both May and Corbyn know they just have to do it soon.

Yes I see your points but how can you practically do that so the country feels it is a legitimate vote?

"I think we would have to have another referendum." (Mon 06-May-19 12:53:22)

If you revoke you can still have another referendum. It could even be promised before we revoke, Mycatisahacker

There seems to be no way through the impasse we have at the moment. If we go with the referendum of three years ago half the country will not be consenting to the outcome; if we have a new one along the same lines, no matter what the outcome I believe that half the country would feel it was illegitimate. This undermines our democracy.

The point would be to set it up so that it was seen as legitimate before we have it next time.

Undoubtedly there are a lot of questions to ask regarding the funding and advertising in the referendum. Questions that have as yet to be fully answered.

However, a more serious issue is that no one seems to be prepared to prevent this happening again. We already know that Farage is being funded almost certainly illegally.

This will have the effect of voters questioning the BPs legitimacy. I am also unclear whether it can legally be called a political party. In my opinion it is a one issue lobby group. It does not constitute a political party and I wonder whether this is allowed.