Revoke, Remain, Reform

MaizieD Quote [ Why should we honour a corrupted result (and it's not merely about lying, it's about illegality that would have made it void had the result been mandatory) that has already made democracy meaningless? ] End Quote.

MaizieD, i can agree with you that the leave Referendum campaign holds many questions in regard to the legality of its operation. However, the only way to investigate the above would be through a full judicial review which could take many months to draw its conclusions and by which time Britain may well have left the European Union and in that there could be no redress.

Yes, some may well be and should be brought to justice if a judicial review found illegal practices had been carried out during the Referendum campaign, but the fact that Britain was no longer a member of the EU would remain.

Of course, some may well argue that Britain leaving the European Union should be placed on hold while such an investigation is held. However, should that investigation find no fault in the leave Campaign then a further blow would have been struck against democracy in Britain after many months of delay in leaving.

The above stated, I do feel that a judicial review should take place, but it should not delay Britain leaving the EU while it is carried out.

MaizieD

I think we would have to have another referendum. If you just revoked you would hand many pissed off voters to the far right.

"The Libdems would abolish first past the post representation and have instead proportional representation. (Mon 06-May-19 12:29:50)

Another attempt to legitimise elections Alexa.

GillT57 (Mon 06-May-19 11:57:25)The original quote is "democracy depends on the consent of the loser". It's come up in all the academic stuff I have been able to find and read and I think it goes back to basic democracy times.

I think the difference between 'permission' and 'consent' matter. I kept thinking 'acceptance' but realised 'consent' was subtly different in that it didn't depend on agreement with the decision but on an agreement that it was taken legitimately.

Your point about the 17.4 million would fall into this. Was it legitimate to use a simple majority for a vote of that will have such an enormous effect on the status quo? (Most countries would use a supermajority in such circumstances just because of the issues above).

There are others such as - Were the electorate legitimately informed by politicians and news outlets. (This one has created a lot of interest in Citizens Assemblies)

The idea of ensuring the vote is legitimate, and therefore can be consented to, means it should work for all.

We have, over time, done much to ensure the electorate feel the vote is legitimate. You can no longer buy votes and only a limited amount, the same for each party, can be spent on the campaign. The difficult with the referendum was that it hit a point where much was changing and no one in the institutions seems to have taken that into account.

"Let this result stand and 'democracy' is as dead as a doornail."

The Libdems would abolish first past the post representation and have instead proportional representation.

Although I strongly believe that Britain should remain in the European Union, I also believe that the Referendum result has to be honoured if democracy in the UK is to mean anything at all in the future.

Why should we honour a corrupted result (and it's not merely about lying, it's about illegality that would have made it void had the result been mandatory) that has already made democracy meaningless?

I just don't understand why people don't care about this. Let this result stand and 'democracy' is as dead as a doornail.

grandad I think your last post underpins the argument as to why 50% of the population may see the vote as illegitimate.

No one had/ has the first clue how to actually leave. No one seemed to understand the economic hit the U.K. would take.
No one seemed to understand the harm done to the union.
No one understood the lies and spin being told to convince the voter.
No one seemed to understand the damage being done to the social fabric of U.K. society.
No one has the first clue what a post brexit Britain will look like
No one took into account the globalisation if the economy and the fact that all countries are part of some sort of economic union.
No one can explain exactly how the U.K. will thrive as an country when/if it eventually leaves.

Least of all the politicians.

Grandad1943

Yes agree with you well put

I tell you this I wish to God we had never had this bloody referendum in the first place!!!!

Although I strongly believe that Britain should remain in the European Union, I also believe that the Referendum result has to be honoured if democracy in the UK is to mean anything at all in the future.

Therefore, the only way forward I feel is through a leave agreement such as that which the Labour and Coservative parties are engaged in attempting to negotiate at the present time. Although those negotiations seem to have little chance of success, it will need those talks or negotiations with very similar content to succeed if Britain is not to slip even further into the Brexit mire.

What really is the disaster in the current situation is that while many thousands of businesses are struggling with future customer orders not knowing if the prices they are quoting will be subject to tariff charges it not, this government continues to stagger on without any idea how to progress Brexit for those businesses.

The foregoing i find totally disgusting in that those which sold Brexit to so many of the British population had not a clue has to how they would get Britain out of the EU, and the consequence of that we are now all suffering.

caladonail

The EU has had a bad press here for decades so much so that people who live in areas heavily subsidised by the EU voted out....can someone explain to the good people pf Cornwall etc that there is no hope in hell of the WM government giving them the lost funding.They'll be left to sink !

Labaik

Don't think the EU is in as big a mess as this country is at this moment in time....

I am pleased to see that we have all been able to have a considered and understanding discussion about this dreadful deadlock that the country is in. I do agree about the 'permission of the losers' very few politicians have mentioned this massive group which amounts to nearly half of the electorate. It really isn't helpful when politicians drone on about the 17.4m who voted to leave. Yes, their opinion and vote is important but so is that of the huge number who did not vote to leave. 'You lost get over it' is not a good mantra for getting people on side.

Jane10

I can't 'move on' or 'consent' when it is democratic principles that are at stake.

I don't believe that the EU is in quite as much trouble as people would like to think; but that is a completely different debate from the one on this thread.

If the government, any government, declared a national and international emergency regarding extinction this would clear the Brexit blockage because Brexit would be relegated to low priority .

I am sorry Jane10 (Mon 06-May-19 11:37:53) and I understand why you feel this way but I just have a feeling that we are playing fast and loose with our basic democracy if we charge ahead - and we may never recover from that.

Both I think MaizieD (Mon 06-May-19 11:36:47) but also the system we use for having a referendum if we decide to try again. If we were just trying for what we might see as conflict resolution, e.g., remaining in a customs union, I think that should be done through parliament. I do wonder, though, if it is enough or whether we will just end up with everyone feeling they are the loser and everyone feeling it has all be illegitimate.

One thing that should have been done as gg3 and others have indicated is, in order for the vote to be seen as legitimate was to reach out to the 50% who voted remain. No attempt whatsoever has been done with regard to this.
“We won get over it” does not constitute a spirit of reconciliation.

Interesting topic, and replies.
Someone mentioned that maybe there should be a new General Election. How would this help? Would it result in a change of balance in Parliament, and perhaps new ideas?
Personally I think it would be a waste of time, delay decisions even longer.

I think we need to move on from ruminating about this referendum which was, after all, years ago now! Things have changed. The EU does not present the golden prospect it once did. Forget those duplicitous politicians and look at the economics of it all. What do we need to do right now!

So yes, I'm all for Revoke and Remain, but what is to be 'Reformed'? The UK or the EU?

Failing that a clean referendum.

The one thing those who want Brexit seem to have forgotten is that "democracy depends on the consent of the loser".

This is the bit that I think is really important, GGMK3 and that it's, as you say, the bit that has been studiously ignored ever since. There has been no attempt to reconcile Remainers to the result.

I was devastated by the vote to Leave and as more information has emerged over the past 3 years about the fraudulent and corrupt nature of the Leave campaigns I have become less and less reconciled to the prospect of leaving; not least because the steadfast ignoring of the corruption by both the government, the opposition, the media and Leave supporters makes me fear for the future of democracy in the UK.

How can anyone 'consent' to a result (not just now, but in any future election) in which the 'side' which cheats the most wins?

Sorry Mycatisahacker. I'll stop running and rubbing (and ribbing). We are, after all, only one-stupid-mistake-by-any-politician away from being in the same boat. North or South of Hadrian's Wall if that's not too much of a mixed image. These days, lord help us all!