The Labour Party

Maizie d

"Though, of course, I've no idea of what people call you on other forums or in real life.. Perhaps you are venting on here as some sort of safety valve..

I wouldn't normally bother to pull up a poster on a point such as you've made here but as you like to present your contributions as being the acme of logical, evidence based, well judging perfection posting I rather think your unevidenced and overblown little rant here has cast some doubt on your credibility.
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Venting, Safety Valve, Acme of logical, evidence based, over blown ranting, doubt my credibility.

Don't hold back.!

Maizied

Thank you for calling me a LIAR. Your usual charm.

My post you take exception to was trying to give an example of how generalising is rubbish at times and I used myself as an example. Now you call me a LIAR I feel I should respond.

The truth is when a comnentator/poster/anybody discussing the Conservative voter states/believes they are a LEAVE voter they are stereotyping and WRONG. As a Conservative voter at the last 2 elections it is perfectly acceptable to say they are talking of me, albeit out of their backside.

Likewise when a coomentator/poster/anybody discussing REMAIN states / believes they are Labour voters they are also stereotyping and a Labour voter would have the right to say they are thinking of them, ' I '.

If I were to call ALL Labour voters as anti_semetic I would quite rightly be hauled over the coals as it would not be truth nor fact. It would quite rightly bring forth calls to ' don' t call ' ME' anti_semetic because ' I ' vote Labour.

That principle applies when stating a certain political party voter voted for LEAVE or REMAIN, calling voters unintelligent/intelligent etc. etc. Thread after thread after thread has somebody stating/believing they know what/why/how others voted and they don't have a bloody clue. That is the truth!

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Yes, they are, POGS. I didn't even write anything about the alleged characteristics of Remainers or Conservative-voting Remain voters (and it's obvious there are some.)

I was concentrating on the difficulties Labour faces in opting for Remain or Leave. I suggest you read what I wrote more carefully. However, I'll repeat the main points.

Every single post-referendum poll has shown that the majority of people who had voted Labour in the previous election also voted Remain. It's difficult to be accurate for all sorts of reasons, but the figure is about 70% (give or take for a margin of error). Ironically, about 70% of Labour-held parliamentary seats voted Leave. That's because places such as London and Manchester voted Labour AND Remain by a big margin. If Labour opts for Leave, it could possibly afford to lose some voters in those areas, because they're solidly Labour anyway.

The big problem for Labour is in its midlands and northern seats, which voted Leave. Some of these seats are marginals and UKIP (now Brexit Party) are eying them up. If Labour decides to support Remain, it would very probably lose some of them.

On the other hand, by continuing to dither, Labour could lose some of its Lab/LD marginals such as Leeds North West, Cambridge and possibly Manchester Withington.

Having lost most of Scotland, Labour has a real problem making its numbers add up and Brexit is adding to the complexity (and that's without Corbyn).

So, POGS, the majority of Labour voters who voted Remain are concentrated in a few areas. Their votes will produce very different results in a direct election, such as a referendum, from a FPTP system, such as a general election. What's your problem with that?

"The vast majority of Labour voters are pro-Remain, but they're concentrated in areas such as London and Manchester, which are solidly Labour anyway."
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Are they?

I think the majority of Labour ' Members' are Remainers but unless every individual who voted for Labour are asked the wider Labour Electorate remains unknown.

I voted Conservative at the last 2 elections but voted Remain. I am not a Conservative Member but posters and commentators keep telling me I am a thick/xenophobic/racist / even Brexshitter (polite) who voted Leave because that is their perception of anybody who voted Conservative and that means they voted Leave. Proves what rubbish generalising comes up with.

growstuff Thu 25-Jul-19 22:24:03

"It depends which poll you follow, POGS."
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Pardon? Did you mean to post to me.

I am not a fan of Polls but to be fair I have asked on another thread out of interest for a link to one but it is behind The Times pay wall as far as I know.

Polls are interesting but hardly proven a sure bet for information. In fact not worth a lot as they are usually limited in the numbers polled or partisan rubbish.

Polls mean nothing. Remember the ones only 2 days from the referendum when quite a few said Remain would win?

In the anonymity of the ballot booth voters put a cross and its not always the (politically correct) one they tell the pollsters!

The latest average of polls has Labour in the lead:
Labour 25%
Conservative 23%
Brexit Party 21%
LDs 18%
Green 7%
(and, of course, parties such as the SNP, Plaid and the DUP, which are regional)

The percentages are so close that they're meaningless.. The FPTP system depends how concentrated in one area they are. There's always statistical error and people change their minds quite significantly if there's a new scandal!

Labour has a problem with Brexit. If it comes out as a Remain Party, it might pick up some votes/seats from the LDs, which might mean that the LDs lose out in LD/Con marginals. However, Labour would almost certainly also lose seats to the Brexit Party, especially in its northern heartlands. Meanwhile, the Brexit Party could very well lose votes back to the Conservatives, given the approach of the Johnson government. The vast majority of Labour voters are pro-Remain, but they're concentrated in areas such as London and Manchester, which are solidly Labour anyway.

Polls are a useless predictor of a GE result in the current climate.

It depends which poll you follow, POGS.

Corbyn has to listen to Milne, McClusky, MacDonald .

Thank you Iam64
We agree on something!

POGS Corbyn is still waiting for Seamus Milne to tell him the answer to the question you posed.

Voting intentions in case of a GE...
Conservatives
Lib Dems
Labour
Brexit Party.

The postal votes as a percentage of the total number of papers received in the Peterborough byelection was 29%. That's high, but not "extremely high". In the 2017 GE, the average was 18.2% with considerable variation across regions. The North East, for example, was 26%. The percentage of people who return postal votes is always higher than those who turn up in person and the percentage of people applying for postal votes has been rising year on year. As a strategy, Labour activists in Peterborough suggested to people that they apply for postal votes. Labour badly wanted to win Peterborough, so it flooded the area with activists, spent hours door knocking and wouldn't accept excuses from people at work, on holiday, who found it difficult to get to the polling station, etc. There's nothing illegal about that. I have no idea whether cheating went on, but unfounded suspicions and smears should be treated with caution.

Who knows POGS, I don’t think they are a remain party,
McClusky certainly isn’t a remainer, Corbyn definitely isn’t

Now POGS, don’t be putting pressure on the labour leadership to give a clear, consistent and united message on Brexit, it’s unfair to Mr Corbyn.

I asked previously and I will ask again.

If there is a snap General Election, very possible, Labour wins .

Is Labour now a REMAIN Party or EXIT party ?

Grandad

"Anniebach, 15 members of the Tory Party have been expelled from that party in the last few weeks for there islamophobic and anti-semitic statements on social media and then readmitted to the party within a few days"
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The recent Panorama programme on Labour and antisemitism said there was a backlog of 1,000 anti-Semitism allegations and only ' 15 ' people having been expelled.

The Panorama program did not particularly shine a light on what was already spoken of, including in the House Of Parliament by Labour's own MP's who have been challenging Corbyn to act for months.

I accept that antisemitism and Islamophobia are not restricted to any one party but the denial by some it is remotely possible in Labour has astounded me for over 3 years now.

Do those who are "sick of it all" think people will suddenly put aside their differences once the UK has left the EU? Will money and opportunities magically appear to make life better for those who feel the London government is neglecting them? Will they really feel better having a blue passport?

The whole narrative of being "sick of it all" is a scam by Brexiters to get people to accept any agreement just to get it over and done with, no matter what harm it does to them personally and the country as a whole? They're fighting the wrong battle. Rather than turning on the EU, they should be putting pressure on the UK government to facilitate a fairer country.

Sadly, people are falling for the scam.

Grandad re Peterborough I was a poster who found the Peterborough bi election results difficult to swallow .

Out of the 33,998 ballot papers counted, 9,898 were postal votes, with approximately 400 of these being rejected because of discrepancies in details including signatures and dates of births not matching the council records.

That is an extremely high percentage of postal votes.

The Electoral Commission in 2014 (if I remember correctly) named Peterborough as one of 16 authorities as a greater risk of fraud taking place. Happy to be corrected.

So I was surprised when I saw it on the BBC but accept the Police finding.

Think many have reached the same Fennel, sick of it All.

I mentioned some time ago a conversation I had with a taxi driver here in the NE, a traditional Labour stronghold. but they voted 'Leave'. Because "we can cope on our own. "
Today I asked him about Boris - in short, he replied as long as he can get us out I don't care what party he is. We're sick of all the messing about.
Another sign of change here- in the local elections one ward moved from Labour to LibDem.

urmstongran, we are diametrically opposed on what can be summed up simply as 'left or right' political commitment and interest.

However, your post at 17.34 today (Thursday 25 July) is a glorious reflection of the nightmare that is overtaking traditional Labour voters - I should know, I am one.

Labour spokesman on whether Labour is a Remain Party:

"We're not in that zone. We've never said that. We've said we will campaign for Remain against a damaging Tory deal or against no-deal in a referendum, but there are other circumstances that could occur."

??

Annie yes I'm as prejudiced as anyone else.
I try to keep quiet about it though.
In my early days on here I admitted to a racial prejudice. Well, 2. And try to change it by reading etc.
Many don't agree with my view.