The Labour Party

Grandad

"For all the "smoke and mirrors" that ardent Tory supporters attempt to put up in this thread, one very salient point cannot be disputed."
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Keep your head in the sand and your hands over your ears. It is NOT necessarily ardent Tory supporters, whom ever they might be?, who challenge your opinion of Corbyns Leadership or the state the Labour Party is in.
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" The Tory Party and the DUP have held a working majority in the House of Commons, and in the use of that majority have brought Britain to largest political and constitutional crisis that this nation has faced for more than seventy-five years.

No other body in parliament can be held responsible for the above, for the Labour Party are the party of opposition, and against that Tory/ERG/DUP majority have been able to do nothing to offset the havoc the foregoing grouping has wreaked on this country."
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That is pure Bull.!

We could also be in a Constitutional Crisis because so many MP's could not/will not accept the Referendum Result, have been doing everything they can to get a General Election and playing politics.

The Tory Party with a Supply and Confidence agreement with the DUP has/had a slim majority but that slim majority has proven to be of no value because Parliamentary MP's have overriden the Government at practically every vote. Might I add MP's who :-

A) Stood on their Party Manifesto and yet some Tory and Labour MP's have been noted to go against their Manifestos, to the point the public /voter will probably NEVER believe a word in them again. What is the point of them?

B) Voted by a majority to hold a Referendum, they could have voted Cameron down!!!!!

C) MP's have forgotten their constituency voters and changed political alliegence, now sit as Independents but hypocritics that they are do not give their constituents the right of choosing if they still want them as their MP. They call for a 2nd Referendum/Peoples Vote but bugger that when it is their job on the line, their constituents who voted for their Manifesto/Party can be pushed to one side.

D) Repeatedly stated they accepted the result of the democratic vote over our membership of the EU which returned a Leave vote but have done everything in their power to do otherwise and overturned time and time again the 'majority' the government holds.
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"As stated, the Labour Party are the party of opposition, and have not, or cannot stop any action or bill passing through parliament in the face of the above majority."

Of course if there is a majority then any 'action or bill' passes.
That ' principle' has ways been how a democratic vote is decided, until the EU Refendum result when a majority means sod all and another reason why Joe Public has lost faith in Democracy and Parliamenarians, it is an own goal.

It still comes down to the fact a government having a majority is not in control if the Opposition and it's own party MP's rebel as we have witnessed on such a scale as they have over overturning the EU Refendum Result.
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Now you and others will come back with I am a Tory /Leave voter as usual but that is a fallacy of your own making.

I did vote Tory at the last elections but I voted Labour under Blair. I voted to Remain albeit my pen hovered before putting my cross.

Iam64, Callistemon, in regard to your earlier posts in this thread, I do not feel I and many others are being complacent with reference to the present status of the Labour Party.

Indeed, I would again agree with others that Jeremy Corbyn is certainly no great Parliamentary speaker or group control expert. However, Corbyn has through his leadership completely reformed the organising structure throughout not just the Labour Party, but also throughout the whole broader Labour movement in the country to create one Labour identity.

The above will undoubtedly be Corbyns legacy to the movement and in that is to be found the reasons why so many hold total allegiance to Corbyn through "thick and thin." In short, the Labour grassroots activists both party members and affiliate members now have a full say in policymaking and the day to day running of the party and wider movement, and that they greatly appreciate.

Of course, the above is publicised little outside the activities of the party, and does not win the allegiance of very many left-leaning members of the electorate which is so often demonstrated on social media sites.

However, Jeremy Corbyn has stated he will step down as leader as soon as the Brexit crisis shows any sign of being resolved, (but that could be some way off). There is also within the party and broader Labour movement a resolve I feel to "bring to book" those in the Parliamentary Party that have never accepted the new more democratic organising structure, and in that the election of Jeremy Corbyn as leader.

The above may see many constituency Party deselections of sitting Labour Party MPs that will obviously attract much publicity in Britains right-wing owned press. However, and as stated, many believe the above has to be carried out whatever the cost so that the continuous "wrecking tactics" maintained by some Labour MPs in the Parliamentary Party over the past three years will never be witnessed again. Therefore, I cannot see Jeremy Corbyn giving up the leadership of the party until that action by the constituency parties (where required) is completed.

The above (hopefully) will come about prior to any General Election being called enabling all Labour Parliamentary candidates to support both policies and leader in that election.

So, I would agree like many that a new Party Leader with perhaps more charisma will be required in the face of Corbyn stepping down. That stated, I certainly do not feel that there will be any change of policies or organisational structure in the Labour Party or broader movement, and whoever is elected to replace Corbyn will be much in his image.

Not on this thread

Oh POGS come on! It has been a perpetual theme in lots of threads- Labour can't manage money only the Conservatives can save us.. surely you aren't trying to say it has never been said are you?

The conservatives like to make out and fool people that they are the party good at managing the economy when clearly they are not.

They are worse than useless.

Well Said trisher

trisher

"Perhaps all those people who have posted about how good the Conservatives are at managing things, and especially money,"
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Can you point me to ' those people' or a post on this thread that has made that reference.

I am not saying you are incorrect but I can't find where you have seen this.

Perhaps all those people who have posted about how good the Conservatives are at managing things, and especially money, could admit that what has actually happened is that a useless bunch of idiots, they put in power, have effectively imposed levels of poverty unseen since Victorian days, whilst managing to move their own assets to safety. They might then admit that actually they were wrong and start believing that things can only be remedied by a Labour government.

I don't understand either Iam64.

There must be a reason that we have had a Conservative-led government, as Grandad so kindly pointed out, and, if they are useless and failing then could it be that Labour are even more useless and failing even more miserably to inspire people to vote for them?

Yes indeed Grandad. The Conservatives have wrecked public services. Made life much harder for ordinary folk, nigh on impossible for those with mental, physical health problems etc etc
We need a Labour government. There are Corbyn supporters who insist he is the leader to win. Grandad says if Labour lose the next election, nothing should change. I don’t understand how anyone can be complacent

Corbyn spoke out yesterday, he wants an enquiry into the
Whaley Bridge dam, we can now expect

‘I feel your pain’

For all the "smoke and mirrors" that ardent Tory supporters attempt to put up in this thread, one very salient point cannot be disputed.

On May the seventh two thousand and fifteen David Cameron was called to Buckingham Palace and requested by our monarch as the leader of the largest party in the House of Commons to form a new government for the United Kingdom. That request David Cameron accepted, and since the above date, the Conservative party along with the taxpayer-funded support of the Northern Ireland Democratic Unionist Party have formed the parliamentary government of this nation.

The Tory Party and the DUP have held a working majority in the House of Commons, and in the use of that majority have brought Britain to largest political and constitutional crisis that this nation has faced for more than seventy-five years.

No other body in parliament can be held responsible for the above, for the Labour Party are the party of opposition, and against that Tory/ERG/DUP majority have been able to do nothing to offset the havoc the foregoing grouping has wreaked on this country.

Evidence to the above can be witnessed in that at last Septembers Labour Movement Delegate Conference the lay members attending determined that only a General Election would have any chance of resolving the Brexit crisis, and that was brought into policy.

Jeremy Corbyn has supported that lay member created policy throughout the past year, but this shambles of a United Kingdom government would never accept that argument even as the crisis deepened by the week and Tory Party leaders came and went.

However, even within Tory circles, the General Election policy created by those lay conference delegates is now being accepted as possibly the only way to resolve the Brexit crisis. Of course, the hard right in the Conservative party now headed by Boris Johnson still look to extream measures to gain their self-interests in Britain leaving Europe with such planned measures as the proroguing of Parliament.

Should the above be brought forward it may be that all outside the Tory/ERG/DUP grouping will be able to do nothing should the above decide in some way that they will unite and act as the Governing body in the proroguing of Parliament.

As stated, the Labour Party are the party of opposition, and have not, or cannot stop any action or bill passing through parliament in the face of the above majority.

Therefore the division and crisis that this nation now faces can only be placed in complete total on those that have formed the government and governing party of this country since May of two thousand and fifteen, and no amount of smoke and mirrors deflection by Tory supporting members of this forum or elsewhere can change that fact.

Ah so now we are back to the opposition should be the government! Haven't we been here before?

It was the turmoil over Brexit not an effective opposition, an effective opposition would have won not come second

BUt what is 'effective' Annie if not inflicting the biggest defeat in modern history on a government?

How about be effective?

Anie I know that and have asked consistently what an effective opposition should do. The only reply seems to be from Iam64 that they should be the government. (I know it's illogical, but what can you do?)

The government is the government not the opposition ,
the official opposition is there to oppose the government

So an effective opposition should be the government, but they aren't. Can I remind you Iam64 that the projected outcome of the last GE was a huge majority for the Conservatives. That didn't happen and they were only able to form a government by bribing the DUP. So Corbyn brought about a change in the predicted outcome. This government has a majority of 1 it will not survive much longer.

Phew POGS you did it again. I don't need to exhaust myself attempting to respond to the hectoring from Grandad who absolves Corbyn and Momentum from any responsibility for the mess we are in.
I will repeat myself though, if we'd had an effective opposition, surely we would now have a Labour government. Under Corbyn Labour lost the last election, lost the EU elections, lost the local elections and recently lost a by election. Not looking great is it.

Grandad
I hope you enjoyed your meal.

Your post of 19.06 is a repeat of a repeat of a repeat form of whatabouttery and on a thread discussing Labour I will discuss Labour.

I do answer your points re the Conservatives when there is a question asked, not merely statements of what you think of the Tories.

However I have to say the majority of personal posts I usually get from you these days repeatedly raise the bladdy Conservative Party as though you don't have anything to say to discuss/debate/contradict my points on Labour.

As for :
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"POG's in regard to your post @ 18:31 today, you seem to view Momentum as a party within the Labour Party even though they have all been democratically elected to the positions they hold."
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I do not view Momentum as a Party within a Party ' I believe' it is a Party within a Party. That has been my position for years and proven correct.

The fact Momentum has been democratically elected to the so many positions at the helm of Labour confirms it.

Momentum is now the power base over the Labour Party and it is also ' my belief ' Momentum / Unions will be even more powerful at the next Genel Election as Constituencies that have vacancies (resignations/deselection) will be filled by only Momentum/Union Candidates as is happening now.

What ever further is stated on this thread tonight, the battery on my phone is now gone flat, and I have been in Europe on business for the last five days.

So, I am off to take Carol my dear wife out for a nice meal and a few drinks and then looking forward to a day off tomorrow.

So, see you then if I am fit enough. ?

Corbyn said ‘ we must respect that result and article 50 has to be invoked now’, the day after the results of the referendum, didn’t perch on his fence that day didn’t he ?

Jura2, Varian, the Brexit policy decision taken by those that attended the Delegate Conference was correct and that Annual Conference is the premier policy-making body within the whole Labour movement.

No concerted number motions have been placed before the conference standing orders committee or the Labour Party National Executive Committee requesting a reconvened conference to review the Brexit Policy.

Therefore, it would seem to be clear that those elected grassroots representatives still support the decision made at that conference, and that's democracy in action.

Unusual in Britain today when so many in politics seem to run around like headless chicken changing their minds and policy at every whim.

Tough for some who view themselves as the betters of those who made those polices, is it not.

The fact that 184 labour MP’s didn’t vote with Corbyn must surely cause those who are not Corbyn devotees to question why ?