The Labour Party

Grandad1943 Mon 05-Aug-19 17:17:36

'It was not Corbyn that called the divisive referendum.'
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He did nothing to stop it did he?

Corbyn voted for a Referendum! He had wanted a refendum on the EU for years and voted against his own government/party as we all know several times over many years.

Parliament voted by 544 to 53 in' favour ' to progress the EU Referendum Bill to hold a Referendum. Conservatives and Labour rejected an SNP Ammendment to reject the Bill.
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' It was not Corbyn that triggered article fifty without even looking at what Britain had signed up to by way of its membership of the EU.'

Hells Bells. Corbyn called for Article 50 to be triggered straight away!

It was Corbyn who ' HYPOCRITICALLY ' said after the Referendum result in June 2016:-

" The British people have made their decision. We must respect that result and Article 50 has to be invoked now so that we negotiate an exit from European Union.

“Obviously there has to be strategy but the whole point of the referendum was that the public would be asked their opinion. They’ve given their opinion. It is up for parliament to now act on that opinion."

What changed his mind!
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" It was not Corbyn who demanded of the EU negotiators terms that could not be granted purely on the basis of the treaties that Britain played a leading part in formulating."

We don't have a bladdy clue what Corbyn would have done because he was not in any position to negotiate
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" It was not Corbyn that did not even think on the situation of Britain leaving the EU would bring about in Northern Ireland. "

Well I refer back to what he said above and he didn't mention Northern Ireland. He actually agrees with the need for the Northern Ireland Back Stop and if he was so concerned about it he should have voted for the UK / EU Withdrawal Agreement after Theresa May gave in to his Red Lines. It might have passed eventually but it never went back to Parliament because Corbyn ' DECLARED' Labour would still not vote for the UK/EU Withdrawal Agreement, HE PLAYED POLITICS.
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"It was not Corbyn that did not envisage the situation that Britain leaving the EU could create at the channel ports."

There wouldn't be trouble at channel ports had Corbyn voted for the UK/EU Withdrawal Bill probably.
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" It is not Corbyn that is now spending six billion pounds on preparing Britain Britain for a "no-deal" Brexit that was never mentioned even as a possibility by leavers during the referendum campaign."

That is a repeated mantra and a silly argument that holds no weight whatsoever but used time and time again.

Maybe pro Leavers did not mention what would happen if there was No Deal or supplied / put a rose tinted view on it.
Are you saying you never heard ANYBODY campaigning for Remain mention what might/could happen if there was No Deal?

I know I certainly did and the Remain Campaign was pretty crappy if there voice only reached a few people. Of course that was not the case and some people/media were rentless as to warning what could happen if there was No Deal.
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"It was not Corbyn who stated on the day that article fifty was signed that "these will be the easiest negotiation ever concluded"

No, it was a Leave campaign comment but it was up to intelligent people to listen to ' both' sides of the argument and Corbyn stated very little about Article 50 accept he thought it should be triggered straight away, even Theresa May gave it more length of thought as to when to trigger Article 50
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"The above and much more has been stated and carried out by this useless Tory government under the direction of its neo-fascist ERG members."

The ERG voted the same as Labour and voted against the UK/EU Withdrawal Agreement, not all of them, even Boris Johnson voted for the UK/EU Withdrawal Agreement eventually. The ERG are ' the few not the many' and yet Parliament voted as they did. They might have had different reasons but the continuous ploy to blame the ERG for not voting for the UK/EU Withdrawal Agreement and excuse other parties who did the same is PLAYING POLITICS without even logic being applied.

And that is the truth of the situation.

It really is extraordinary how people deny a defeat which was the worst in modern history is effective opposition and continue to post pure speculation without a single idea indicating what they imagine good opposition to be.
Iam64 Corbyn voted against austerity. Some Labour MPs who have clashed with Corbyn didn't. Not his fault! www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/these-are-the-184-labour-mps-who-didn-t-vote-against-the-tories-welfare-bill-10404831.html

Iam64 Quote [How can the opposition be absolved of all responsibility for the horrors of austerity ? I don't blame them for austerity of course not. I do blame them for their ineffective opposition to the worst conservative government I've experienced in my life time.] End Quote.

Iam64, it has been pointed out any number of times in this thread that the Tory Party are the party of Government at this point in time.

With the Taxpayer purchased support of the UDP the Conservative Party have commanded a majority in the House of Commons in all finance bills that have been placed before it.

So, Iam64 would you please inform me how Corbyn and the Labour Party could have prevented those bills and the austerity brought about by them passing into law?

The Labour Party membership have never wanted this. The majority of them wants us to Remain in the EU. It is time that Corbyn took note of that.

For the last time- even Conference decisions have to adapt to extreme emergency situations. We are being thrown into a NoDeal by ERG and Johnson- and will have left the EU.

So, is this what YOU want? Is this what Corbyn wants?
Is that still what the Labout Membership wants?

Jura2 in regard to post @ 19:14 today, Corbyn has unreservedly supported the rank and file/activists Brexit policy brought about by last Septembers Delegate Conference.

Despite much criticism that policy of "bringing about a General Election as a first priority" it has proven to be a correct decision as even within the Tory Party it is being conceded that such an election may be the only way to solve this Brexit crisis.

Therefore, many Labour MPs who felt that those low born "pamphlet pushers" had no right to dictate policy that they as their betters should be deciding, are now being made to eat their words.

Corbyn in support of that policy and those delegates has been proven right in the view now of very many within the broader Labour movement.

How can the opposition be absolved of all responsibility for the horrors of austerity ? I don't blame them for austerity of course not. I do blame them for their ineffective opposition to the worst conservative government I've experienced in my life time.

The reason Jo asked on his first day- if that the House was closing for recess! Simple enough to understand.

trisher 'So if calling for a vote of No Confidence and inflicting on this government the biggest defeat in modern history isn't an effective opposition please can someone explain to me exactly what is?'

but he has NOT- that is the whole point. And NO, I do NOT 'not like Corbyn' - he is a geat activist- but he will not be the future PM - and his refusal to come off the fence and provide effective opposition in time to avert a No Deal disater- will never be forgiven.

Varian Quote [It is Corbyn's fault that about twenty five Labour MPs did not support his motion.

It is also Corbyn's fault that he did not accept Jo Swinson's proposal that a motion of no-confidence be made by the official opposition before the summer recess.] End Quote.

Varian, I presume when you refer to "Corbyn's vote" above that you are speaking on the vote of no confidence put forward by the Labour Party following the third failure of Theresa May's withdrawal agreement to pass through the House of Commons. However, even if those twenty-five Labour MPs had voted in support of that vote of no confidence that would still have not commanded a majority in the house with the DUP supporting the government. Therefore once again Corbyn could change nothing as leader of the opposition. It is also being reported that a number of those twenty-five Labour MPs have now been called before their constituency parties to explain their actions.

As for Swinton demanding that Corbyn join her in laying down a further vote of no confidence on the day that Boris Johnson was elected as the Tory Party leader and was still forming his Cabinet, such action would have surely been doomed to failure as every Tory and UDP MP in the house would have voted against that motion on that day.

The above demonstrated how naive Swinton is, and Corbyn was perfectly right in refusing to put down such a motion.

But pointing out the far left and unions gave us 14 years of a Thatcher/Major government is ignored

So if calling for a vote of No Confidence and inflicting on this government the biggest defeat in modern history isn't an effective opposition please can someone explain to me exactly what is?
I understand people don't like Corbyn. I understand they don't want to blame the government. I don't understand exactly what. they expect the opposition to do.
Any principled government would have resigned after the momentous defeat.

And the policy of the media to ignore any positive/creative ideas, comments etc from Corbyn (and the other groups of his party), of the views of Johnson's opposition .

I refer you back to Varian's post. Yes, Corbyn could have provided effective opposition and made a huge difference. He sat on the fence- still is. But the time he comes off- it will probably be too late. Gambling with our future.

And no, I am not anti-Corbyn- and I do believe he is/was a great activist. I have been part of many events in the past with him.

POG's you have often spoken on what you view as "the shortcomings of the Labour Party on this forum. However, as so often has been pointed out to you, the Labour Party are not the party of government and therefore cannot have any effect on the lives of the people who reside in this country at this point in time.

However, the Tory Party are the party of government at this point in time, and therefore to point to the crisis that party has brought on this nation is essential and therefore many of us on this forum will continue to carry that out.

Therefore, criticism of the Labour Party matters little as that body can have no effect on our lives. However, the actions of the ERG/Tory party affects us all, and therefore pointing out the shortcomings of this shambles of a government is far more important as their actions directly affect us all as we of this nation have witnessed to our detriment over the past four years.

Thank you Varian, you beat me to it whilst I was having supper.

Trisher, I so often agree with you- but the above post is just below the belt. Many of us who say that Corbyn has not been effective in opposition, is still wavering on that bleeding fence- and is very unlikely to ever be PM even if there was a GE now- are not anti Corbyn, believe all the antisemitism accusations are BS, and certainly did NOT vote the Tories in, nor voted for Brexit.

It is Corbyn's fault that about twenty five Labour MPs did not support his motion.

It is also Corbyn's fault that he did not accept Jo Swinson's proposal that a motion of no-confidence be made by the official opposition before the summer recess.

There is a real danger that we will stumble into a disastrous no-deal brexit by default, against the wishes of the British people and the majority of MPs because Corbyn chickened out of confronting the issue.

POG's in regard to your post @ 18:31 today, you seem to view Momentum as a party within the Labour Party even though they have all been democratically elected to the positions they hold.

However, you do not acknowledge the same of the Neo-Facist ERG group within the Torty Pary. In that they have had huge influence on this shambles of a government, and the crisis brought on this nation, but no one voted for them to have such power in the party.

Party within the Tory Party?

Really Shoequeen58 Did you miss all this then?
On 15 January 2019, a motion of no confidence in the government of Theresa May was tabled in the House of Commons of the United Kingdom. On 16 January, the House rejected it by a vote of 325 to 306.

The motion was laid by Jeremy Corbyn, the Leader of the Labour Party and Leader of the Opposition, after the government lost a Commons vote to secure parliamentary backing for the government's deal for the UK's withdrawal from the European Union by 230 votes on the evening of 15 January.That vote, 432 to 202 in favour of rejecting the deal, represented the largest defeat for a sitting government in modern history.
It isn't Corbyn's fault that the DUP have propped up this government.

Did no-one read Whitewave's OP?

All Corbyn critics etc can now have a thread all to yourselves.

[sigh]

Grandad

" It would seem that several on this thread continually use the words/names of Corbyn and Momentum with obsessional frequency and to the disregard of all else"
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Yep.

I have spoken of the Jeremy for Leader /Momentum. /Labour Party for ' years ' on GN now, not just on this thread. That is how I access the Labour to be since Corbyn became Leader. Commonly described as ' a party within a party'.

Not sure what your post was about, other than bringing the Tory Party into the equation again. One could say by quoting your own words---

'continually using the Tory Party to avoid speaking about Labour with obsessional frequency and to the disregard of all else"

The Tories have presented the opposition with an open goal for the last two years. Corbyn has failed to even kick the ball.

There have always been a number of posters on GN who have tried to blame Corbyn for every possible wrong, but this pathetic assertion that the present situation is all his fault really is too much. All I can imagine is that the people who voted in this Tory government have just realised what a shambles it is, and being completely unable to accept any responsibility for this, they are blindly casting around and blaming anyone.

jura2 Quote [We all know that Grandad- but it is Corbyn who allowed them to get away with it all] End Quote.

Please inform me jura2 how Corbyn "
allowed them to get away with it all" being that he is only the leader of the opposition in the House of Commons.

The Conservatives are the Largest single party in the Commons and with the taxpayer paid for the support of Northern Ireland democratic Unionist party (UDP) they hold a majority in Parliament that cannot be defeated if they all vote as one body.

Of course, in the above, they are dominated by the neo-fascist ERG group and that has brought Britain into the crisis it faces now.

Corbyn and the Labour party could do nothing in regard to that situation coming about as I view it.

So Jura2 please advise on how the above could have been made different by Corbyn?

PMQ, Johnson flapping his hands around and Corbyn clutching his written questions