The Labour Party

Conference is going to be pretty lively- how will the LP manage to show the rest of the world they are united as a party, and even more importantly, united on hos to deal with this massive debâcle

'Labour could be forced to back the revocation of Article 50 in new conference showdown' (from The European)

W

jura2, I believe you may have mistakenly "cross-post" on two threads. The above seems to be related to what we were discussing on the "Old Labour" thread but a reply from you to me seems to have been placed in this thread. ?

However, Perhaps it is me, as it does not take much to get me confused at by age.

Anyway, me and my better half are now out for the rest of this evening, so will try to decipher it all later on tomorrow as I am in the office in the morning (yes Saturday).

So apologies if it is me that has got the above wrong. ?

And again- I have consistently explained why there cannot be a 'better deal' now. The EU cannot and will not agree to give the UK much better terms than its own members- surely you can see that. Farage and many others said we could have a Norway/Switzerland type dea and I do believe we could have bargained and fought for this- but it would have meant FMOP- and it is far too late now. Sorry for repeating the 'mantra' but NO, there won't be a 'Cake and Eat It with Unicorns and 100s or 1000s on top' - whomever is at the head of negotiations- May, Johnson or indeed Corbyn. Freesh faces and fresh attitude makes not difference- it is just NOT on the table, and never will be. And for totally understandable reasons. And the backstop cannot be taken away - the GFA must stand and be respected.

I will not accept your statement that I have not made the case and use generalities without foundation.

Do you believe Grandad- that if Johnson by-passes Parliament to throw us into No Deal- there will not be widespread disorder?

And here is back to my point- yes, it would be very difficult to just cancel Brexit now- it has gone too far. Which is exactly why the LP and Corbyn in front- should have opposed Brexit much earlier - making the case firmly for how it was fraudulently won and how it will cause untold damage for jobs, and the poorest in society- and massive loss of revenue that will make improvements for great services like NHS, Social, Education, etc. He had all the information to make such a very strong case- with the support of the Unions or without (McCluskey has been shown again to pull the strings). It would have been fairly 'easy' then- but I agree it is much much harder now.

Grandad

'Should the Labour Party win that election which is I feel very possible when wider issues than just Brexit are brought to the fore, then Corbyn would get his wish to directly open negotiations with the EU with fresh faces and different attitudes on the British side of the negotiating table.'
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That is why Labour are not being taken seriously and it has flip flopped all over the place since 2016. I have asked repeatedly ' Is Labour a Party of Remain or Leave ' now?

Corbyn and his Shadow Cabinet say the Labour Party will campaign for Remain at the next General Election BUT if in power Labour will try to open negotiations to Leave!

It makes no sense!

The Conservatives are as split as Labour but Labour has lost any credability with it' s core voters who wanted Leave in most Labour supporting areas and it is losing it's Labour Membership vote who want to Remain. Corbyn has tried to appeal to both sides, like Theresa May but it is not possible.

At the next Conference Labour has to decide to be a Remain or Leave Party to be in position of telling the country what it stands for if there is a snap General Election. If it does not then it will stay fence sitting. The Party will be remain in a shambles as are the Conservatives.
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"Therefore, a change of party, personnel and attitude may bring somewhat better terms from the European side, but as stated they are very limited to what they can grant, due to the treaties that Britain played a major part in formulating and then signed up to."
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What better terms?

Labour had Theresa May offering terms they had asked for in her 10 point offer but Labour said it would still refuse to vote for the EU/UK Withdrawal Agreement so the 4th attempt to pass the Agreement never went to Paiament. Labour has said it will never vote for a ' Tory Deal' it wants power and a General Election.

There was No Deal because the opposition benches held the numbers to defeat it, even if the bladdy ERG on mass voted against, which it did not as even Boris Johnson voted FOR the EU/UK Withdrawal Agreement.
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"Should Britain "crash out" of the European Union without a deal, that will be the responsibility of the Tory/ERG/DUP grouping in the House of Commons, and no other bodies."
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Continually raising the ERG argument has a merit but not when it comes to the numbers and who is responsible for the EU/UK Withdrawal Agreement being voted down. It is a Straw Man agrguement. Had Labour voted for the EU/UK Withdrawal Agreement there would be no talk of ' NO DEAL.'
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It takes more than 518,000 votes to win a general election

The party's latest annual accounts show membership figures dropped from 564,000 to 518,000

Still rather more impressive than the tory's 160,000 and the BP's 1.

Personally I think the ‘Oh, Jeremy Corbyn’ at Glastonbury has peaked and his popularity is on the decline.

Jeremy Corbyn has suffered a blow after Labour membership fell by nearly 50,000 last year.

The party's latest annual accounts show membership figures dropped from 564,000 to 518,000.

MacDonald spoke of ‘the English Parliament, they are desperate for a pact with the SNP

Disillusioned with politicians at the moment. But Labour are just not credible, not one with the skill or personality to talk with world leaders never mind the public. They have nothing to say anyway. It very sad, you need a strong opposition.

jura2, for Britain to remain in the free trade area and customs union without being a full member of the EU, then this country would have to gain at least "associate member status." The foregoing would resolve the Irish border issue but would bring forward once again the problem of free movement of labour.

However, an associated member status granted to Britain would enable negotiations to take place on free movement without transgressing the EU treaties so that problem would not be insolvable as it is now.

The downside of the above would be that the United Kingdom would without a doubt still have to make contributions to the EU budget, but we would leave the European Union and that action would uphold the result of the refurendum which leavers are demanding.

So, Jura2 the above is (in my humble opinion) the full problem and how I view the resolve of it. However, you express no view yourself on how to resolve the matter, other than Britain should not leave the EU.

In the above, do you really believe Jura2 that should any authoritative body just state that the United Kingdom was no longer upholding the result of the referendum and would now just remain as a full member of the EU, then those who voted leave would just sit back and accept that?

Should you wish to witness widespread disorder in the streets, action such as the above would be a sure way to bring that about.

So continue to bang your head on the proverbial brick wall if you must jura2, but you will have to come up with something better than you have put forward up to now to enable you to stop that.

Anyway, I am back in the office this morning and have been away for nearly a week I expect things to have piled up, so see you later, (probably much later). ?

Signing out for a bit- as it is like banging your head against a brick wall- and it is painful and pointless.

It does not matter who negotiates- there is NO way the backstop can be dropped, unless there is a viable alternative- and there isn't. And again - a magical deal that puts the UK at a massive advantage compared to other EU countries- with all the rights and advantages, but not the responsibilities, cost, FMOP- and one with access to the top table on top- will not be available. It has been made very clear- Corbyn won't make any difference. Or anyone.

So Remain is the only argument to be put forwards - and this is what the vast majority of LP now wants. So, as said, Conference is going to be very stormy, and show up the massive divisions in the LP- at all levels- at the top too.

What concessions do you believe the EU could make? Honestly?

jura2, to bring about the best in any negotiations depends on the skills of those that engage in those negotiations. The Tory party leadership and their taxpayer funded support have proven time and time again that they do not possess such skills.

However, those of us with more suspicious minds believe that a no-deal exit from the European Union by Britain is exactly what those leading Tories want to bring about a deregulated Britain which would be in their own self-interests. No other explanation can account for the gross ignorance, negligence and incompetence displayed by the British negotiators in their dealings with the EU.

Therefore, a change of party, personnel and attitude may bring somewhat better terms from the European side, but as stated they are very limited to what they can grant, due to the treaties that Britain played a major part in formulating and then signed up to.

However, we can only hope that a fresh government would bring badly required fresh results.

Grandad, I am glad you agree re ' I would be the first to agree that the EU cannot grant to the United Kingdom on leaving all the advantages of membership due to the European Union rules and treaties that Britain had been at the forefront of formulating.' - so what do you think can be improved on Mrs May's deal? You are totally contradicting yourself I am afraid. FMOP is fondamental, and there is no way that the EU can agree to Customs Union and Single Market - that would allow the UK to both seek independent deals AND have the same access to EU market as its members. Surely?

Conference will be 'interesting' for sure - as it is clear that the vast majority of members, especially young ones- are pro EU, and pro Remain.

Go forward from a disastrous No Deal exit- surely it would be better to ensure that does NOT happen.

jura2 in regard to your post-@17:32 today, I would be the first to agree that the EU cannot grant to the United Kingdom on leaving all the advantages of membership due to the European Union rules and treaties that Britain had been at the forefront of formulating.

However, no grouping could I believe carry out more negligent and incompetent negotiations than the Tory/ERG/DUP group has done over the last three years. Therefore, it can only be hoped that in the near future the General Election that the grassroots Labour activists at last Septembers delicate conference realised would be the only way to resolve the Brexit crisis will come about as many even in the Tory party now support such thinking.

Should the Labour Party win that election which is I feel very possible when wider issues than just Brexit are brought to the fore, then Corbyn would get his wish to directly open negotiations with the EU with fresh faces and different attitudes on the British side of the negotiating table.

Whatever the outcome of those negotiations (whether they be positive or not) Corbyn has stated would be brought back to the UK electorate for acceptance or rejection, or in every possibility leave on those terms or stay within the EU.

The above I feel is the only way that the Brexit crisis can be resolved. We must strive to obtain the best terms that can be obtained within the rules and treaties of the European Union and then whatever that outcome it should be returned to the British Electorate for that body to decide on. However, a no-deal threat/solution should never be on the table for discussion with the EU Negotiators.

In the above, those negotiators realise that such an outcome would mean economic disaster for the British people, so why place such a scenario on the table in the first instance. As we always state in our office when things are difficult "we are where we are and we must go forward from there.

The above I feel is the British present position in Brexit and we should again start from the Labour Party Delegate Conference policy brought forward by those grassroots activists of a General election first and then go forward from there.

jura2 Tue 06-Aug-19 20:55:40

You've lost me there- did Corbyn campaign with Farage and UKIP, really?

Of course not!

Corbyn and Hoey have been campaigners against the EU for years and campaigned for Referendums before 2016!

jura. Corbyn didn’t campaign for the referendum he went on holiday

Kate has principles, Corbyn doesn’t

You've lost me there- did Corbyn campaign with Farage and UKIP, really?

jura2 Tue 06-Aug-19 19:22:28

"Why has Hoey not been kicked out of LP years ago?"
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If she had been ' kicked out' years ago one Jeremy Corbyn would have been too as they held the same views and voted similarly for years.

It seems one MP held to her principles and the other lost his for the sake of power.

Of course they were lucky to be Labour MP's when Labour was proud of being a ' Broad Church' and their rebellious voting pattern against their own Labour Leaders/Labour Government did not mean they were by default ' kicked out of the party'.

Holding to her Labour principles of campaigning with Nigel Farage and UKIP? wow.

Grandad

"So much for Hoeys so-called socialist democratic principles. That is why many grassroots activists in the broader Labour movement are determined that such members have to be "rooted out" by the Constituency parties during the course of the late summer, whatever the cost."
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That would be Kate Hoey who walked through the same lobby to vote against the EU alongside one Jeremy Corbyn.

The same Kate Hoey who campaigned for a Referendum on the Lisbon Treaty alongside Corbyn if I am not mistaken.

She has at least stuck to her principles over the EU alongside others such as Dennis Skinner and look how the Labour Party has rewarded them!

No wonder she is not standing at the next election, the Labour Party has turned on her for holding to her principles and yet one who has lost his principled stand over the EU is now held up as a 'principled politician / a conviction politician'

It's a funny old game politics.

Corbyn wanted power at any cost to the country.

"You should know all about that POGS I have yet to see any real reasons why Labour haven't been an effective opposition. But I await them with patience."

You have seen it, you choose to ignore it or blab Conspiracy Theories.
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It has been :-

1) Mired in antisemitism complaints from within the Labour Party, ' for years', since Corbyn became Leader.

2). It has been mired in complaints of harrassement/bullying/intimidation,/threats of deselection on a huge scale since Corbyn became Leader of the Jeremy for Leader /Momentum/ Labour Party.

3) Corbyn and his Shadow Cabinet have been flip flopping all over the place as to what is their position on the EU Referendum result, even now it is not clear. Corbyn says he now accepts a 2nd Referendum/Peoples Vote and Labour will campaign to Remain. The next breath when asked ' so Labour is now a Remain Party' he says no we will negotiate with the EU for a Good Deal.

4) Labour has played a strategic game of voting down ' ANY ' deal proposed by Theresa May, even when she caved in to their Red Lines Labour could not state other than a change of Conservative Leader why it had done so. Labour agreed with the Back Stop etc.

The UK/EU Withdrawal Agreement has been voted down in Parliament so the only way to stop a No Deal is to have a change of Government or Revoke Article 50 which Corbyn has said he would not Revoke Article 50.

A Labour Government looks unlikely to have an overall majority so it would need a Coalition Government or Supply and Confidence agreement with another party and they have moaned/whinged/played that propaganda game to attack the Tories over having a Coalition and Supply and Confidence Governments they will be seen as nothing short of hypocrites if and when they do the same.

5) Corbyn/Momentum have taken over the Labour Party and made gains in membership but it has lost a lot of Core Labour voters and only a General Election will see how many.
Like the Conservatives it is a divided party and has not been a good Opposition.

Talking of a General Election, Labour has had a sole purpose and that is to bring down the government and gain a General Election and power at ANY cost and it probably will get it's way shortly. Labour will have to say whether it is a Remain or Leave Party but like the Tory Party the last 3 years since the EU Referendum Joe Public does not trust or believe a word they say.