Labour anti-semitism

That’s correct whitewave.
The so called ‘right’ arent the only people who are so sure they’re right they’ve ceased to question their own views. I share the general negative feelings on the political threads but I don’t feel it’s all hopeless. Good people still vastly outnumber bad

If we look at present day, I think the main criticism is the way the state of Israel has adopted an expansionist policy. This is of course related to Zionism in many critics view.

I don't think they are 'unable' to debate Iam. I think they are so sure they are right they have ceased to question their own views. I don't really care that much about what they say to me, I am more bothered that it is a malaise that covers the country on all subjects.

trisher I suspect we're all aware that not all posters are entirely straight forward.

I think some are aware trisher

Certainly not representative of the majority Iam64 but surely worth listening to when we attempt to unravel the problems of Zionism and anti-semitism?
I think we should always be aware that posters sometimes have hidden agendas when they post.

trisher - I've now watched your link. Yes, interesting but the group isn't representative of the majority, as I know you'll agree.
I don't agree with GGmk3 that those who disagree with her on this complex issue are right wing and unable to debate, only to express opinions that must be accepted as truth.

Trueblue brings interesting and informed views to this debate.

... and some of our fellow human beings are getting odder and odder.

It's unbelievable that such weight can be given to a man-made set of rules designed to divide, dictate and demonize, all under numerous umbrellas of numerous beliefs, none of which hold water.

Why do those on the right always want a simplistic answer to a complex question? Whether it's Brexit or Zionism they cannot discuss and their opinions must be treated as truths.

We are not split as a nation by Brexit or by how we feel about racism, etc. We are split by the way we look at the world and our fellow human beings.

They are only words and words cannot puncture your heart.

The challenge to this issue is that the word "Zionist" means different things to different people and to different Jews. This is an answer given elsewhere. As the writer probably know more about this than all of us put together I thought it might help.

No, not all Jews are Zionists. However, the majority, globally, probably are.

But, and this is the important part, what “Zionist” means differs to different people. I am a Zionist, but some Zionists would probably say that my Zionism isn’t “real” Zionism, because “Zionism” is sort of an umbrella term describing many different types of ideologies:

1. *Religious Zionism*: that "Eretz Yisrael" (the Land of Israel) was promised to the ancient Israelites by God, and Jews have a permanent and unchangeable right to the land.

2. Secular or Political Zionism (itself an umbrella term): the idea, born from 19th century European and Arabist nationalism ideologies, that the Jews, being a nation, should have a physical nation in which to live free of persecution, like all other peoples should.

3 *Labour Zionism*: the idea that a Jewish state should be created through the efforts of the Jewish working class settling in the Land of Israel and constructing a state through the creation of a progressive Jewish society. Today, this ideology is less popular in Israel, but still remains a strong current. Usually progressive Zionists are secular, but not always. Many are religious Jews in some sense.

4. *Right-wing Zionism*: this ideology that Labour or left-wing or Progressive Zionism is not nationalist enough, and that it is impossible for Jews and Arabs to coexist. It’s often also explicitly expansionist, with right-wing Zionists often proponents of annexing the West Bank or retaking the Gaza Strip. Right-wing Zionists may or may not also be religious.
These are named ideologies, but the reality is that real life is more fluid and more complicated. Some Jews (like myself) believe in the inalienable right of the Jewish People to live in our ancestral homeland, and our right to settle there, but also believe in the peace process, and think that our rights as Jews should never come at the expense of the rights of Palestinians (and other non-Jews in Israel or the occupied territories). Some Jews’ Zionism is influenced by religion, and for some, it isn’t.

Some Jews think that “Zionism” is a thing of the past, a foregone conclusion- now that the state of Israel exists, debating Zionism is a moot point- what matters is what we do with the state we have. Some of these people identify themselves and their thinking as post-Zionist.

And of course, there is a not-insignificant contingent of Jews who identify themselves as anti-Zionist. But numerically, they are a minority among the global Jewish community. And often, their group memberships are made up largely of non-Jews (for example, Jewish Voice for Peace).

Anyway, there’s a wide diversity of opinion among Jews about what Zionism means and about whether it’s a good thing or not. We’re not a hivemind.

Ilana Newman, BA Jewish Studies www.quora.com/Are-all-the-Jews-Zionists?redirected_qid+37745181

Watch the film link Iam64 it is fascinating. Some very Orthodox Jews who opposed the creation of Israel to begin with have come round, but the ones in the film haven't. It's to do with believing and waiting for god to act and for the Messiah to arrive.

Pleased to learn it was me again trisher , I am so use to it

So, we are all born with the knowledge of our everything to do with our own culture - of course we're not. If trueblue has a lack of knowledge of what the Jews who are not Zionists think then she does not have that knowledge. You see it all the time with people belonging to political parties, religions or simply not knowing the history of their own country. It is perfectly possible for people either to know little about there own culture. It is also possible for any one to give a one-sided view in the hope that others don't cotton on. You do it all the time "Annie" and, as "trueblue" is prepared to declare her right-wing views so openly it is not surprising that, as Zionism is as much a political stance as a religious one she is happy not to share all the thinking around the movement with us.

Zionism refers to the movement to create a Jewish state in the Middle East, roughy corresponding to the historical land of Israel.
"As far as Jews go many are not Zionists". Trisher, I don't think I have ever asked a poster to source something they say, but I'm curious that you state that belief so strongly. I don't have any Jewish friends and in fact I don't have any friends of any persuasion, who don't believe in the right of the state of Israel to exist.

Actually Annie it was you I was referring to when I posted about not understanding.

This is very interesting -a group of very Orthodox Jews who do not believe Israel should exist. As I watched I wondered "Is it anti-semitic for one group of Jews to call another group 'scum'?"
www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKplabTRuak

So unbelievable, trisher tells trueblue a Jew

‘Not half as offensive as posting on something you have no understanding of’ - Jews , Zionists.

trisher Zionism is a belief that Israel should exist, so like 90+% of my co-religionists, and many other races & religions, of course I'm a Zionist!

I've met very few people who don't believe the State of Israel shouldn't exist...even my Christian & Muslim friends.

I think trueblue22 has stated in several
posts that she is a jewess.

Not half as offensive as posting on something you have no understanding of. As far as Jews go many are not Zionists. Particular sets of very Orthodox Jews do not believe in a secular Zion so cannot be called Zionists. In fact many Jews would be very upset that you equate Judaism with Zionism.

"As for Corbyn's remarks about Zionists, he made it quiet clear that it was the political group he was discussing and not all Jews. So am I to gather if it upset you that you are a Zionist?"

It's obvious who he was aiming his comments to and don't even begin to try to defend him! It is offensive to allude to a Jew as a 'Zionist' in a derogatory way like JC has done.

I find your defence of the indefensible quite offensive actually.

Corbyn pointed out the difference between Zionists and the English

You can be a Zionist lobbyist and be no faith or any faith. It is as trish says an ideology.

That is why everyone accepts that it is perfectly acceptable to criticise Zionism, just as you would say other ideology.