The future is unhealthy: selling environmental protection

This:
I know that Gove is biased too, but in a different direction. I don't think that soil erosion can be dismissed as an ideologically driven concern. The "look around you" approach is not very scientific!

These articles seem to support the claim that soil erosion is in dire need of addressing:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5014291/

This report in the Guardian comments on a UN study. This European study looks at the costs of soil erosion.

David I refer you to my post above.

LOL
Crystaltips there are large livestock units in the UK but if you really want to see Industrial production go to the US, Dairy herds of 10,000 cows, one pig factory that could handle the entire UK production on its own, the scale of food production in the USA is simply mind boggling.

Back to the UK, a friend of mine runs a fairly large modern Dairy Herd I walk round it several times a year, large numbers yes but they are so well cared for, they have to be because it is a supermarket supply contract.

If yourself or a small group of other gransnetters would like to visit you would be simply amazed at how well it’s done, he would be please to show you.

Of course the U.K. is not self sufficient in food production anyway, not to mention the industrial production of meat and dairy products which open the whole animal welfare/ imbalance of resources argument.

Monica I’m simply supporting the status quo that is feeding a world population of 7 or 8 billion and allowing for war or major weather events it does that very successfully.

Those that say the population could be fed by organic means are dangerous because what would happen is the rich consumers in the west would push food prices up to levels out of reach for poorer nations. So thank goodness that those that do produce organic food are supplying a niche market of rich consumers.

You have made your own mind up for purely ideological reasons with no regards to the practicalities or consequences.

For those who think protesting makes no difference, I'll just point at the Swords into Ploughshares movement in the US and Trident Ploughshares in the UK en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_Ploughshares

The point of direct action is often to simply bring to the attention of others some wrong, moral or practical that once in the public domain begins to change public consciousness. Change is not always instant or directly achieved.

There are many other examples from suffragettes to bra burning, flower power, direct confrontation of tanks, burning of US draft cards against the Vietnam war, Martin Luther King, protests against racism in the southern States of the US. Too many stories to tell but thank goodness there are always some brave individuals who stand up to be counted when there are things to be concerned about.

Well, I gave you reports containing the evidence, but since you have made up your mind I will not bother you with anymore facts.

Organic food is an emotional choice for those that can afford it and not a practical option, there is no evidence whatsoever that Organically grown food has any health benefits at all.
The quality standards of fresh Organic food presented in the shops is pretty poor, simply because it is grown with poor nutrition and not protected from pests and diseases adequately.
Despite making small incentives to encourage organics, all governments know that it is conventional production that is going to feed the population.

The report was not written or commissioned by the Soil Association. It was written and reaerched in France. All that the Soil Association did was pay for a transalation into English.

If you are concerned that the SA commissioned the transalation, why not go onto the IDDRI site and read it in the original French. You will not that the summary comes direct from their site with no SA involvement at all.

Your response was exactly what I was expecting.

The Soil Association is a biased pressure group it is not independant
Like a great many so called experts they give a very optimistic view of what a change to organic production would achieve

Myself, I agree with every government in the world conventional food production ensures continuity of supply and feeds the population. If you choose to listen to crackpots instead of looking at the abundant supply of food that we have in the UK.
You do not understand the practicalities of organic production I illustrated that grazing livestock could convert fairly easily. Crop production is very different, nutrients, weed control, pests and disease are a major challenge and very few farmers make a living out of organic cropping, costs are too high and yields too low.

Ironically I think if the UK decided to go organic entirely, obesity would disappear along with all the associated diseases because food would be very expensive but that’s not going to happen.

Davidhs. I suggest you read the report recently published on Agroecology by the Institut du développement durable et des relations internationales The Institut is part of the Paris Institute of Political Studies (Science Po), one of the elite universities in France.

The report refutes much of what you say far more effectively than I can. www.soilassociation.org/media/18074/iddri-study-tyfa.pdf

A four page summary of the report can be found at www.iddri.org/sites/default/files/PDF/Publications/Catalogue%20Iddri/D%C3%A9cryptage/201809-IB1018-TYFAEN_0.pdf

Monica

Most of the crops grown in the UK already receive the optimum plant nutrients, all farmers have to use a qualified agronomist to calculate what is needed and advise on any chemical treatment. Every application is recorded on every field, audited and also available for inspection at any time.

That is the fact of crop production and the same applies to livestock.

Organic production of crops cuts yields by at least 2/3 because fertility has to be built up either by livestock or green manuring and it may take 3 years before a crop of Wheat can be grown.

Grazing livestock is fairly straightforward use a larger area and manage manure efficiently and you can be organic quite easily

Intensive livestock, Pigs, Poultry and some Cattle, all would be fed on a cereal based diet, that becomes very difficult. Organic cereals would be very expensive and prices would increase greatly, probably to unaffordable levels for many.

Reducing animal production also reduces the manure that crops use to grow, so even more chemical fertilizers are needed to maintain crop production, that means more CO2 to make the chemicals.

Don’t get hung up on soils degrading and widespread erosion, look around the countryside and you will see lush healthy crops, damage by bad soil condition is minor, adverse weather influences crops far more.

On a Global level less than half of the population would be able to be fed by organic production, it’s the technology and chemicals that feed the rest. We in the affluent west can afford to choose organic if we wish, however the population is growing and living longer so the bulk of food is not going to be grown organically.

Thanks for the correction, davidhs. I’d quoted from the testimonial given by the technical expert to the inquiry: someone called Dr Lane, from Arup. Interesting that she’s not quite correct!

The figures for Britain's self sufficiency in food varies between 50 -60%. Whether using chemicals to increase yields would help I am not sure. Plants need more than just fertiliser to grow and many soils are bcoming exhausted from overcropping.

A far better way forward is to move towards farming organically, organic methods increase soil fertility, the nutritional value of the crops produced and by eating less meat, and that grass fed, apart from the health benefits, much of the area of land now growing animal feed could grow crops for human consumption.

In the middle of "spcome" it should have said . . sprayed on his crop. Carrots come in many colours (purple, yellow, white, red, orange) . . " Deleted it by mistake.

Sorry, lmm6 but I think that farmer who told your friend that he made his carrots bright orange with rat poison was pulling your leg! "What makes carrots orange? The plant pigment that gives carrots and other vegetables their vivid orange colour is beta-carotene. Fruits and Vegetables that are yellow/orange in colour contain beta-carotene and carrots are one of the vegetables richest in Beta-Carotene. Our bodies convert beta-carotene into Vitamin One carrot supplies enough beta-carotene to meet our daily requirement for Vitamin A. Carotenoids are one of the most important groups of natural pigments."

Rat poison would kill his customers if spcome in many colours and his bright ones are far more likely to be of a naturally bright variety than made so by spraying with a poisonous chemical - and if you still believe he has done such a thing, you should be reporting him to the trading standards organisation.

I don't think this island could feed itself without the use of some chemicals. But they are all well tested to be safe.

Thank you Urmstongran

I was sure I recognised at least one of the names of the authors of the article, and sure enough, by googling ER and their names, up popped the connection.

I wasn't surprised, but as it was reported in the Guardian, then of course every word is swallowed by so many on here!!

Sorry - senior moment (all too frequent these days!)

1mm6 It was me. And I'm proud of him. And he knows it.

Worry ye not.

1mm6 - sorry but it's not me who takes the mick out of her grandson. Apart from that error, I agree with your post.

Chemical companies don’t control politicians that’s a joke - really, what really makes politicians take notice is a food shortage, empty shelves are every politicians nightmare.
They know full well that fertilizers and agrochemicals are going to ensure food continuity so their action is going to be measured.

Dinahmo, please don't take the mick out of your grandson for supporting Extinction Rebellion. It's his generation's future at stake from the way the earth has been over-exploited. As for chemicals, just watch the farmers crop-spraying and you'll see how much stuff goes on and into your vegetables. Someone I know asked a local farmer how he got his carrots to be so bright orange. The farmer said "Rat poison". The chemical companies are so powerful they control the politicians. Grow your own or buy organic.

An interesting read.

Thank you MOnica and JenniferEccles for being voices of reason!

Tillybelle It was just that I had said almost the same thing as JenniferEccles, so I thought I should defend an opinion I shared.