Cry, our beloved country

Following on from you cyclegran

Remainers are more likely to vote Labour and interestingly they are more likely to be middle class. A minority labour voters voted to leave and are mainly working class.

Varian, thanks for such an informative and interesting post and link.

GracesGranMK3 I think you've identified something that I've asked about on another thread: why did people vote leave (I still don't fully understand that).

You said that "half the country has not felt any sense of security for decades". I'm not surprised. This shows the decline in relative poverty over the years between 1997 and 2010 - so there was less of a gap between rich and poor in those years. But inequality has grown more recently: this gives a summary (though there are debates about this).

According to YouGov data, people in lower income households were more likely to vote leave than those in higher income households. Maybe this is one reason why people voted leave: if someone has been ignored, politically, worked hard but not seen their income grow as a result, they'd be p-d off and want a way to express their anger. So voting leave might be one way of doing that - a kind of "let's just change things, given that we're not in a good place now". What do you think?

Monica I agree with you about Ebola, it is so highly contagious.

The real disasters are the ones no one foresees. Between 1914-1918, more people died of Spanish flu than were killed in the war.

The biggest threat facing the world at present is Ebola disease. It is only in Africa at present but it is spreading fast as refugees from the Congo move into Uganda. It was possible to control it in Sierra Leone and Liberia because the civil wars were over and people were static, but once it gets into refugee populations of countries still at war, as in the Congo and the carry it as they flee, then it becomes uncontrollable.

Monica thank you for your clarification, I was only 16 and can remember my parents having "petrol ration books". I was obviously not paying attention, interested in exams and boys!!!!

When did we have petrol rationing? During the first oil crisis in 1973 there was a threat of petrol rationing and ration books were printed but rationing was not introduced and has not been since.

notspaghetti I knew nobody who acted or reacted as you and your friends did. Since a global nuclear war would do for all of us and, as like everyone else, I was unlikely to survive it. I could saw no point in worrying about it. If it happened it happened. I did however feel it was unlikely because both the USA and Russia knew that there was no way either could destroy the other without being destroyed themselves, so, how ever much they postured and threatened, neither was going to risk it - and they didn't

I also can remember the three day weeks, power cuts, Post Office strike (which really upset me as I couldn't correspond with one of my Grans regularly).

Then we had petrol rationing.

I worked in London when the IRA bombed The Tower of London just over the road from my office, we just carried on working, they then bombed The Baltic Exchange (I think that's the one) and several other buildings over time, we carried on working!!!

If anything happens in a major city nowadays due to "social media" and mobile phones every thing is known instantly and a form of mass hysteria sets in.

I have no memory of being afraid of the Cold War. Life was mundane, predictable, followed set patterns.

Sausages and Angel Delight for tea on Tuesday. Mike Yarwood on the telly ( which you bashed if it didn't work)

The phone rang and we talked to people. Nobody had syndromes .

I remember working during the Three Day Week when the electricity was cut off and back on at regular intervals. I was working at the time in an antiquarian book shop in Albermarle Street, trying to do manual book-keeping by candlenight. We bought bottles of whisky with the petty cash to keep ourselves warm. I certainly don't remember feeling insecure or despair.

NotSpaghetti I think that many of us lived with that constant fear during the Cold War, despite the fact that, on the surface, we seemed to be carefree teenagers. Yes, I do remember much talk of building nuclear bunkers and stockpiling food and water.

And I agree with your last paragraph - there are bigger threats than Brexit although that seems to dominate the minds of so many.

The £65 that EU citizens have been paying for the "settlement certificate"(not sure that is the correct name in U.K.it is called this in mainland EU Countries), is being refunded (my DIL has already received her refund).

I am sure times have changed from the past decades quoted. I know how I felt then and how I feel now. Others may feel differently of course but we lived in a time when our security was getting, better not worse and the threats came from the outside not within our own society and governance. I am not sure how simply having more information can change a fundamental dichotomy.

I think there is truth in what you say GracesGranMK3 but I'm afraid I did not trust our government to do the right thing even then, and did not feel life was improving for most people (or at least it was only improving superficially). There was plenty of misery and hatred and fear in my opinion.

Lemongrove - yes because it is their future and not ours.

I think we simply know more about people and situations now than in the past, perhaps it was a case of ignorance is bliss back then.It’s almost information overload now at times, which in itself can engender feelings of insecurity and general anxiety.

I think the difference, BlueBelle and NotSpaghetti is that in the 60s, 70s or 80s the threat was from outside. We did at least feel we could depend on our own. Most people also felt life for them was improving and giving them more sense of security,

Now we have a situation where neither side believes in the veracity of the other and where half the country has not felt any sense of security for decades.

lemongrove I think there were people (possibly from both "sides") who thought UK nationals abroad should have the vote - and there were lots saying it should be over 16s not over 18s.

BlueBelle - you may not have felt despair like this in the 60s 70s or 80s despite the "bad world news" but I found the USA/Russia political problems in the 1980s every bit as terrifying as the political situation today. I had one friend who built a nuclear bunker in her garden and was stocking it week by week from her child benefit. I had another who was developing "off grid living" with the assumption that there would be no clean water or electricity or gas. It felt likely and real. We decided the post nuclear world would not be worth living in and did what we could by writing to politicians, supporting protest groups (such as Greenham Common). Maybe you didn't feel that hopelessness.
M0nica says she felt we had "stable government" and that made all the difference for her, whereas by then I no longer trusted the government to do anything stable - whatever political hue.

I think the biggest problem for us now is, contrary to popular opinion, not our exit from Europe (though personally I think it's a big mistake) but the destruction of the planet by mankind's collective hands. Brexit is but a straw next to this. And maybe not even a plastic one.

Had the referendum result gone the other way,and Remain had the larger vote, would varian and any other poster who agrees with the sentiments in the long post above been protesting that the under 18’s didn’t have a vote or the EU members? I think not.

Varian - thank you for all the work that you put into your last post above. Somehow I doubt that the Leavers will agree with it.

It's so long since I read it and probably gave it away, so perhaps I may download it to my Kindle, thanks Gonegirl.

We could have gone to live in SA years ago, but I decided I could not live there, and have friends in what was S Rhodesia too.

Most countries have their problems, best not to stress it could be worse, we could have the dynamic duo, Corbyn and Abbott.

If you are interested in the SA situation pre-apartheid and a story about how tribal life disintegrates. I can’t really remember exactly the characters in it though. I think I’ve still got it somewhere.

It's on kindle for £4.99. In two minds whether to buy it. Has anyone read it recently? (ie when old and jaded)

I’ve read it donkey years ago. All I can remember is that it described the growing gulf and division between the society in SA, which eventually led to apartheid.

I felt that there was a tiny resonance with the way our country has become so divided and so borrowed and changed the title to suit that is all, as simple as that?

In some respects the Brexit referendum itself was a violation of human rights, argues Adrian Low. Three substantial groups were denied the opportunity to vote when inclusion of any two of those groups would almost certainly have reversed the result. Rational democratic decision-making was negated by a campaign of exaggeration and lies and unnecessary last-minute poll predictions encouraged complacency in the turnout for Remain.

The connection between human rights and democracy is well known. It is written into many national constitutions, in the UN declaration on human rights and in the EU treaties. Statements typically say that individuals, irrespective of country, culture and context, are equal in dignity and rights and a country’s democratic processes should protect the individual’s opportunity to influence their governance and uphold their human rights.

The European Court of Human Rights, for example, has highlighted the human right to elected representation and has developed case-law guidance on the rights of citizens to vote.

The UK Human Rights Act includes three areas where the Brexit vote has, or potentially will, deny human rights. These are Article 3 of Protocol 1: the right to the free expression of the opinion of the people, (in elections/referenda); Article 14 which makes it illegal to discriminate on a wide range of grounds including … national or social origin, and Article 5: the right to liberty and security.

The Brexit vote potentially affects many EU and UK expats’ ability to retain their current home, the current education of their children, to be able to afford health care, to own property and businesses, to employ others to live securely and to travel freely etc. It is a basic human right for each such individual to have a voice and to have a vote.

Three groups were denied the right to vote at the referendum. They were not offered the opportunity to influence the outcome.

Denial of resident rights, denial of youth rights, denial of the proper factual basis of a right of free choice.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/01/30/the-brexit-referendum-was-a-violation-of-human-rights/

The fraudulent referendum was a denial of human rights and a corruption of democracy.