Let’s stop pretending the referendum was illegal eh?

but that the last 10 years has been disastrous for others - when we have still been in the EU.

Callistemon, the last 10 years have been disastrous for many because of domestic policy, the tory 'austerity' policy which has cut public spending because of their adherence to the discredited 'national budgets are like household budgets' economic theory (a theory not supported by most economists, as I have pointed out again and again on this forum). All it has done is reduce the amount of money circulating in the 'real' economy. That's the one we all live in, not the 'money markets' which are divorced from reality and exist only to make rich people richer by playing the markets, not by making any contribution to jobs and investment in the 'real world'.

As for castigating Dinnahmo, I think you missed the bit where she said that they haven't benefited from the increased value of the house they renovated. My mother sold our childhood home in the 70s for about £9,000. It went on the market a few years ago for over £200,000. Nothing to do with us at all....

I haven't time to say more but just to emphasise that the EU is in no way to blame for people's plight. It is completely the doing of the tories in government.

I think you are very confused indeed.

Good job the British didn't take the "easy" route and keep the "status quo" in 1939, eh? I wish more of today's generation had as much backbone and belief in themselves and our country that our parent's generation had. (Sat 29-Jun-19 07:21:57)

So what was your reason for "doing your bit" in the war Opal? For many, it was to support our friends and allies not to kick them in the teeth. For others, it was because, as a part of Europe we might be next. My mother voted in the referendum to stay in. She was 19 in 1939 and joined up as soon as she was 21 and didn't need her parent's permission. My father was in the RAF - he had been since he was 16 and was 21 when the war started. I know he would never have voted his "friends" in Europe out. He was all in favour of us joining and the search for peace. We have also seen the last veterans of that war recently telling us what they feel.

It is the next generation, not all but some who think they know best, the ones who are petty enough to feel they missed out who are always telling us what they "think" it was all about. Cowards all is what I would call them for daring to try and borrow the courage of those who were actually involved.

- the joy, the smiles, the music, the humour, the humanity will all return on 31st October!
?

I am astonished by the irony in your post, Thursday 00.57, Dinahmo and am surprised that you cannot see that yourself!

You say life has been good for you, quoting a house purchase for £18,000 in 1979 which you renovated, sold and which is now worth £1.5 million.

You then quote the fact of homelessness which you say has happened during the last ten years.
I will include the fact that many young people cannot get on the housing ladder, although they are not technically homeless.
Can you not see the link between these two?

What does being the EU have to do with this? People were encouraged to buy up suitable housing as an alternative 'pension pot' in the early 2000's and that is now coming home to roost.
You say that you did well and attribute this to our EU membership, but that the last 10 years has been disastrous for others - when we have still been in the EU.

I am confused.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Well said Opal
and before departing this post I would just like to reiterate a comment made earlier on a Brexit post -- that being ' note how hostile the remainers are with their comments, whereas the leavers mange to remain relatively polite'

Good job the British didn't take the "easy" route and keep the "status quo" in 1939, eh? I wish more of today's generation had as much backbone and belief in themselves and our country that our parent's generation had.

That may be your answer gangy5 but it isn't mine. Things may need to be changed in the "status quo" but, unlike leave voters, I don't destroy good things that need changes; I work on getting the changes made.

I really can hear the whining leavers complaining when the complete upheaval they have forced on us don't come to fruition in the way they convinced themselves they would -because that is the sort of people they are. Not one of your points is true so now why do you want to leave?

The answer is - it's "easiest to accept the status quo"

They are the ones you can see every day gangy5. It is/was the status quo. Trying to blame someone or something that isn't the cause of your problems gives very short-lived comfort. What you blame the EU for is either not true or is caused by our government. The challenges we face are internal ones. If you didn't like what was happening change the government - they still govern us; the EU doesn't and never has.

I like the house I live in. I do not have to list the reasons: you could see them. If you decided, that against my personal judgement I must move to a house that I haven't seen and the reports I can get of it are all negative - why would I want to do that? Why should I agree with you wrecking our lives? Your list above is like old fashioned estate agent talk. It's lies and inflated promises. It is you that is changing what we have not me. It is you that has to justify that and vote by more the 4% in a lying, unlawful referendum to make me do what you want to do.

You obviously aren't reading the replies I put on but coming out of the EU:

1. We will be free to make our own trade deals if and where we can and almost certainly our diminished power will mean they are inferior.

2. We have never stopped using our own judicial system.

3. This is unlikely, as fishing rights go back hundreds of years, and were NOT first introduced with the Common Fisheries Policy. We need to land our fish in other ports, as other country's vessels need to land in our ports.

4. Farming will be returned to our jurisdiction. That doesn't make any sense. It is already within our jurisdiction.

5. The exchequer already decided. It decided we should have a long term agreement with the EU. If we come out we will want another long term agreement with the EU as they are our largest market. If we make agreements with other large economies they will also dictate some of the terms.

And in 10 years time, if we are all still around you will be moaning about what we have then.

How many times are we expected to repeat, again and again... the list is endless.

I'm waiting for your list of benefits for staying in !!

We will hopefully retake our fishing grounds
This is unlikely, as fishing rights go back hundreds of years, and were NOT first introduced with the Common Fisheries Policy. We need to land our fish in other ports, as other country's vessels need to land in our ports.

The reality of a hard Brexit wouldn't be as straightforward as many of the ex-fishing families might like to believe. They would still face fishing quotas, which would be negotiated by the same politicians they have accused of letting them down. They'd still have to trade with our European neighbours as they are a massive market for our fishing industry. And they'd almost certainly still have to share waters with boats from other countries, who'd have the right to fish there too.

The vote came just as the industry was enjoying increasing profits. This is a report telling us how they were doing in 2017 - it's the latest I can find.
www.gov.uk/government/news/fishing-industry-in-2017-statistics-published

The tide seems to have finally turned for this industry while Brexit and certainly a hard Brexit offers few guarantees.

People who voted to leave and intransigently maintain they'd do so again can sound as if it's all a game to them. But it's really a decision that deserves sober thought.

If we want to sell to the EU- we will have to abide by their rules on bio safety, welfare, chemical safety, etc, etc, etc - or they just won't buy. We can choose our standards of course- but they can just choose to NOT buy.

We can choose zero tariffs- but that means we will HAVE TO accept zero tariffs on goods coming in- like meat from Argentina, or cars from Japan, etc, etc. We CANNOT pick and mix tariffs as we please under WTO rules. WTO is run by bureaucrats in Geneva- any tariffs have to be agreed with 164 (from top of head) of countries.

On the other hand, China, the USA and other countries, will insist on we adopting their very low, unsafe, in fact, dangerous - standards, in exchange for a Deal (as well as increased Visas, etc) - that is all very simple.

One industry that will expand if we leave will be law companies as industry pays the cost learning to understand how leaving affects them and how they can trade with our biggest market without the frictionless trade we have been used to.

Most EU regulations don't require new UK laws. They can be implemented in the UK without new legislation, for example by simply changing administrative rules. Where we are selling the good these cover we will still have to adopt them.

We also adopt some EU regulations that simply codify existing UK law at a European level. In other words, we would have that law anyway and we still will.

Those using this argument have also often calculated in what are known as "non-legislative EU regulations", which concern matters so small or routine that many people wouldn't really recognise them as law. Once again these regulations will still exist.

If we continue to trade with the EU all these would have to still be dealt with so I am wondering just what "We will revert to our own judicial system" means to you?

I don't think you will get an explanation Maisie but I do appreciate you at least answering the original question gangy5

Firstly, I find it cowardly when people attack those who can't answer back. The Civil Servants are doing a job. I suppose if you are the sort of person who would take on a job and then try and undermine what you should be doing you can imagine that others would do likewise. We are so lucky to live in a democracy. Blaming Civil Servants or traducing MPs is not going to change the situation we are in. It sounds very much as if you are seeing things going wrong with this and getting your excuses in first.

1. We will be free to make our own trade deals. Currently all deals are negotiated by the EU with a dose of protectionism thrown in. This is limiting us trading with the rest of the world.

This has always puzzled me, gangy5. Can you explain how EU 'protectionism' damages our trade, seeing that we are, for the present, part of the EU and benefit from any 'protectionism' implicit in deals made with our input and on our behalf, by the EU.
(I interpret protectionism as taking measures, such as required standards, which protect our own products against being undercut by cheaper imported goods produced to lower standards. If I'm wrong, do clarify what it does mean)

Interested to know what part of the world we don't now trade with which we will be able to trade with if we leave the EU and how advantageous that will be to the UK.

The most important things are that we won't be drawn into the Euro or the EU's ongoing plans for federalism

We weren't going to be required to do either under the terms of the agreement Cameron reached with the EU. Agreement that was to be incorporated into the Treaties which determine our relationship with the EU.

And if you'd taken any real interest in the EU you would know that there isn't a great appetite for federalism among the other member states.

I voted leave, as did my OH. We didn't have a vote in 1975 due to the fact that we were stationed in Germany where my husband was a serving soldier. We would not have voted to join, have never thought we should be in the EU and were delighted when the referendum was announced. We would vote leave again - to the extent that as life long Tory voters, we voted for Nigel Farage in the European elections. Like many others, we wanted to get the message across that we are fed up of waiting.

GracesGranMK3 "Perhaps you could explain why you believe the country and all its citizens is actually going to have a better future by leaving. No leaver ever does as far as I can see so I won't be holding my breath".

Well here we are - my reasons for leaving the EU:-

1. We will be free to make our own trade deals. Currently all deals are negotiated by the EU with a dose of protectionism thrown in. This is limiting us trading with the rest of the world.
2. We will revert to our own judicial system which is the envy of the world and based on common law.
3. We will hopefully retake our fishing grounds
4. Farming will be returned to our jurisdiction
5. The exchequer can decide how all revenue is spent. I am also sure that in most years - the EU budget hasn't balanced!!

The most important things are that we won't be drawn into the Euro or the EU's ongoing plans for federalism.

The big downer with all that's gone on is the fact of the totally wasted last 3 years. It is no wonder that, by now, business is getting jittery. Any fallout that ensues is completely the government's fault and don't forget the civil service in this also

I now invite the remainers to tell us why they choose to remain

"So, how has being in the EU been bad for us?
That's one of life's little mysteries, Dinahmo. Along with, 'How is leaving the EU going to improve our lives?"

Exactly that! We don't know whether we would have been more prosperous if we had stayed outside the EU. And we don't know if leaving the EU is going to improve our lives. WE DON'T KNOW. None of us knows. So we all have to vote with what our gut tells us, and mine is to leave, before we join the Euro and our economy then becomes inextricably linked to every other Euro country, most of which are much smaller than us and do not have such large economies. We would then be bailing out the likes of Spain, Greece, Italy et al, ad infinitum. No thanks.

And Aysha Hazairika was brilliant.

I voted Leave in 1975, again in 2016 and, if there's ever another referendum and I'm still alive, I'll vote Leave next time. Nothing will ever persuade me to think that it's better paying a sh*t load of money to have a 'supposedly free trade agreement' and to live under the control of a corrupt regime like the EU, when we could be an independent country. Even if it means making some mistakes, they would be our own mistakes.

And now it come to light that the BBC allowed the Tory party to erase from an interview with BoJo, the fact he called the French turds, as it would not be helpful in getting a good deal. The BBC has been shown, again and again, to be biased- which is why so many of us have switched to channel 4 news.

Mind you, I dreade QT last night and only intended to watch for a few minutes- but the guy from the Sun was actually very good, and the CEO of Iceland was massively impressive- and Liz Truss her usual haughty, snobby, look at people down her nose, hopeless and looked ridiculous.

Richard Corbett MEP

In 10 years BBC QT has asked 50 MEPs onto its show

Pro- remain. 0. Zilch none

Anti-EU. 100% of which 36% was Farage.