Let’s stop pretending the referendum was illegal eh?

gangy5 (Thu 27-Jun-19 08:11:37)

Do you really believe that those who didn't vote as you did did not "think of the country's future" but that because you voted leave you have a more patriotic outlook? What an incredibly arrogant opinion.

Perhaps you could explain why you believe the country and all its citizens is actually going to have a better future by leaving. No leaver ever does as far as I can see so I won't be holding my breath.

Just going back to the OP - from a Good Law Project update.

The Vote Leave saga continues

If you recall, the Good Law Project launched a judicial review into the Electoral Commission’s failure to investigate whether Vote Leave was guilty of criminal conduct in relation to referendum overspending. We succeeded in the High Court, which ruled that the Electoral Commission had misunderstood the law surrounding donations during the EU Referendum. The consequence was that the body in charge of ensuring the referendum was fair had unlawfully tilted the playing field in favour of Vote Leave.

However, the Electoral Commission decided to appeal the decision. The hearing will take place on Thursday 4th July, and we will, of course, let you know how that goes.

We have launched a crowdfunding campaign, where you can read more about the background of the case. Please help us defend the ruling that Vote Leave broke the law.

www.crowdjustice.com/case/our-democracy-isnt-for-sale/

gangy5 I did not write that I was perfectly satisfied, merely that life has generally been good for me and mine and I assume for most people.

The sad thing is the way in which over the last 10 years the government has ignored the problems of homelessness, schools, young people and social care.

They've allowed private companies to do pretty much as they wished, with few controls. Examples - G4S and the Olympics, Capita, Carillion and now Southern Water.

Need I go on - the list is endless.

Well I'm gobsmacked! The last 2 posters have been perfectly satisfied with how their lives have been over the years that we've been tied to the EU. Maybe in our own small worlds this has been true. We now need to think of the country's future, not simply our own. This is exactly why many do not want to see change.

One thing is clear is that we have NO trade agreements at all, and it will years before we get to that stage. Meanwhile we are expecting our businesses to compete with the rest of the world who are all in comfortable trade agreements easing life for their businesses.

No wonder the world is looking at us with such incredulity

So, how has being in the EU been bad for us?

That's one of life's little mysteries, Dinahmo. Along with, 'How is leaving the EU going to improve our lives?' ?

Reading what many Leavers have written, anybody would think that the period since 1973 has been disastrous for the UK. I went into articles that year and in 1979 we bought our first house for £18,000. It was a wreck and as we could not afford to pay anyone to do the work, my husband did it, working 7 days a week, either on his business or on the house. Now that house is worth around £1.5 million. Not that we own it anymore and are probably worth 1/4 of that.

The fact is that life has had its vagaries but has generally been good. I'm sure than many of you out there would say the same. So, how has being in the EU been bad for us?

I read the above post as stating that the Electoral Commission wrongly advised the Leave campaign. So how can the Leave campaign be held responsible, if it followed that advice?

Again, per my earlier post, if the Remainers had won, and the legality of the referendum was in doubt, how many remainers would have insisted on a re-run? Nil, nada, zero, zilch, they moan because they didn't get the result they wanted. End of.

Leave EU

'Leave.EU has been fined £70,000 by the Electoral Commission for offences committed under electoral law, following its investigation into the campaigner’s funding and spend during the EU referendum.'
--

Lib Dems

'Details of £18,000 in fines for the Liberal Democrats have been published today by the Electoral Commission; this follows an investigation that found the party failed to deliver a complete and accurate spending return as a permitted participant at the EU Referendum.

The total sum, which nears the Commission’s maximum individual fine of £20,000, is made up of two fines. '
--

Smaller fines were given to other groups.
----

What has always interested / baffled me is the High Court case. Extracts:-

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45519676

' The High Court agreed with the Electoral Commission finding in July that Vote Leave had broken the law, but said the watchdog had misinterpreted the rules, in the run-up to the June 2016 referendum, in advice it gave to the Leave campaign.'

' In his judgement, Lord Justice Leggatt said the Electoral Commission had "misinterpreted the definition of 'referendum expenses'" as defined by the Political Parties, Elections and Referendum Act.

He added: "The source of its error is a mistaken assumption that an individual or body which makes a donation to a permitted participant cannot thereby incur referendum expenses.

"As a result of this error, the Electoral Commission has interpreted the definition in a way that is inconsistent with both the language and the purpose of the legislation."

Confuses me.

Paragraphs are your friend WWm2
?

Remain now has an 18 point lead!

From the metro. Caroline Lucas and a number of other MPs

It is a big step to take legal action against the police, but I have joined a group of politicians in doing just that. The issue is something which strikes at the heart of our democracy: politicians breaking the law to get the results they want – in this case, the UK leaving the European Union. Those of us who have decided to action are not a group of Remoaners, trying to get the Brexit result overturned. We come from different political parties and from both Remain and Leave camps, but we are united in a deep dismay that our electoral laws were broken in what was the most important vote in this country for decades. The law-breaking is not in doubt; the official regulator, the Electoral Commission, has fined two main pro-Brexit campaigns – Vote Leave and Leave.EU – and been strongly critical of both. Vote Leave was fined £61,000 for breaking spending limits. This was the campaign which was fronted by several government ministers, including the man who is now the front-runner to be our next prime minister, Boris Johnson. Vote Leave’s contempt for the law didn’t end there. It even refused to be interviewed by the Electoral Commission and destroyed key documents. On the other end, Leave.EU – Nigel Farage’s anti-EU campaign – was fined even more (£70,000) for a series of offences including breaking its campaign spending limit, inaccurately reporting loans it had received and not being clear about who had provided the money. It also failed to declare services received from a US campaign organisation. We’ve become used to Nigel Farage being on the receiving end of unexplained loans. He has been generously bank-rolled by the insurance tycoon Arron Banks, receiving nearly half a million pounds in the year after the referendum. Banks himself is under criminal investigation for his role in ‘multiple suspected offences’ within the Leave.EU campaign. People who break the law should be held accountable and so far, that hasn’t happened. This is not just a matter of campaign teams failing to keep track of invoices. As the Electoral Commission said, both Vote Leave and Leave.EU ‘broke the electoral rules set out by Parliament to ensure fairness, confidence and legitimacy at an electoral event…’. The regulator has done its job, investigating and fining both campaigns, and would have fined them more if it had had the power to do so –but it doesn’t end there. People who break the law should be held accountable and so far, that hasn’t happened. Nearly a year ago, the Commission handed over more than 2,000 documents to the Metropolitan Police detailing why they believed serious offences had been committed by Vote Leave. Since then, there’s been nothing but silence. The police have two things to consider; firstly, is there enough evidence? The answer is clearly yes. Furthermore, is it in the public interest to prosecute? If you believe in the rule of law and the fairness of the democratic process of our country, then the answer to that must also be yes. MORE: BREXIT Brexit 'might make beer cheaper in pubs' claims minister Posters appearing across UK 'will highlight treasure trove of Boris Johnson hypocrisy' Yellow Vest activist James Goddard guilty of assaulting photographer We are used to some political parties having much deeper pockets than others, as well as the two main parties being bank-rolled by wealthy individuals, corporations or trade unions. But during election periods, limits are set on how much can be spent. When that breaks down, one of the pillars of our democracy crumbles. Because it is not universal suffrage which upholds our democratic system, it is the rule of law. When it is broken, those responsible should be held accountable. The police must take action against those who broke the law or explain why they are not doing so. At the moment, that isn’t happening and we need to know why.

Read more: metro.co.uk/2019/06/26/brexit-campaigners-broke-the-law-now-they-must-face-the-consequences-10064164/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

Do we get a prize when your "hyperbole" gets to 10 UG

Amazing what you can say about a non-truth isn't it. Could anyone show me just one of the "so many times" a leave voter has said "the referendum was illegal"? I shall not hold my breath.

lemon it may not worry you but it worries me and I know I am not alone. I think it is rather arrogant/patronising of you to say I should not be worried, that is up to me.

I do not understand how 'many' could know what was right or wrong years before the referendum. Yes, there could be a 'few' who knew enough to inform their vote but most people 'knew' very little before 2016 and therefore must have voted without enough knowledge.

MaizieD says to Urmstongran.......’are you suddenly going to develop an empathy bone’ that seems impolite to me!

lemong 'All the posts from leavers on this thread are polite......not so some of the remainer posts! Says it all, really.'

please do give one example of an 'unpolite' post by a remainer on this thread? Please.

"They made up their minds with no idea of the consequences"

And just what WILL the consequences be, Nonnie? Please list these 'certainties'.

Devastation all round? I think not.

Let's face it, when we joined the Common Market we had absolutely no idea that it would morph into the EU and cost us £39,000,000,000 every single year to be part of it.

Everyone I speak to, Remainer or Leaver just wants to get on with it now.

As for 'a rift' in the country, that is massively hyped up by remainers or those who take part in discussions online or the bias of media reports. (Look at Gransnet, for example - the political discussions on here are NOTHING like the way in which I communicate with my Remainer friends face to face!)

Our trading relationship with the EU will resume, when we finally Leave and give it a chance to become established on different terms. Hopefully the bitterness will subdue then.

nonnie it’s not worrying at all ( that many had made up their minds years before) it simply shows they had thought about it well before the referendum, and I include both leavers and remainers in that scenario.

All the posts from leavers on this thread are polite......not so some of the remainer posts! Says it all, really.
Good posts Chucky and Opal

No, it is not a matter of opinion. It is the finding of the official Government body that investigates electoral fraud- it was not illegal, as such - it became so due to multiple and proven fraud.

That's a matter of opinion, the actual referundum vote on the 23rd June 2016 was not illegal.

FC123: 'I am sure if the referendum was illegal (which it wasn't) as some posters keep saying, the result to leave would have been declared null and void long ago, '

just wondering, do you ever read other people's posts?

The reason why the Electoral Commission was unable to cancel the vote, despite clear and multiple evidence of severe fraud - has been explained several times on various posts.

Why do Remainers seem to thrive on ‘worst case scenarios’ when no one knows yet how bad (or dare I say good?) things might end up

I think this is your lack of knowledge showing rather than your implied negative attitude of the people who are concerned.

I find those leavers putting their point forward are perfectly capable of reading and absorbing words like "up to" or "within a range from a to z". Even some of what you might call positive expert opinions aren't that good are they?

I suppose it depends where you want to get your information from. If I was ill I would rather get a prognosis from a doctor than my next door neighbour or a politician. I do believe in reading expert advice properly but getting it from you or the unicorn lovers would not be where I would choose to go for detail and information.

I am sure if the referendum was illegal (which it wasn't) as some posters keep saying, the result to leave would have been declared null and void long ago, Remainers have just every other trick in the book.
Just accept we are going to leave.