Johnson and Brexit

Germany has done better economically than the UK since their government has supported their manufacturing industry and they have continued to make cars, trucks, tractors, trains, washing machines etc to a high quality standard. They spend far more on a highly developed technical and engineering education system. They have a much higher productivity than the UK, they spend more on health and education then the UK. Even though Merkel is at the end of her leadership, she has remained a constant over the last 12 years. At the same time, we have had several changes of leadership with the constant u turns and changes of policy which have put us in the current state of instability.

I believe in ' the system'

I respect your point of view Dinahmo. I was not old enough to vote for membership or not, of the Common Market and agree that it was a good idea in terms of trade. That said I was never a fan of the Maastricht Treaty.

This resulted in the formation of the EU; free movement of EU residents between EU countries; the creation of a central banking system; furthering Europe becoming a single market and the intro. of the Euro as a common currency. None of the aforementioned being aspects of the EU that I'm comfortable with.

Good post POGS

PS. I agree with varian. Democracy isn't a belief. It's a human-made system.

Varian

' The bribery of the DUP by the Tories was, to my knowledge, unprecedented and I do not think that bribery would be likely to occur in any future arrangements involving parties trying to do the best for the country by acting together to prevent a no deal brexit.'
--

What do you think Nicola Sturgeon will ' want ' from Corbyn/Labour to go into a Supply and Confidence government if not another Scottish Referendum?

I say SNP because the other parties ' at present ' have ruled out working with Corbyn. I don' t believe them but they are doing their own backroom deals it appears.

I'm not going to correct you because you're right. I'm very much aware of what is going on in Germany.

Nevertheless, over a 70 year period a form of PR has served Germany very well. I was talking long term. Even now, the country is not facing the kind of constitutional crisis that the UK is.

Change has tended to be gradual and consensual.

Growstuff

"Germany is the most successful post-WW2 European economy and has had coalition governments (apart from a short spell) since 1947. How come they can do something the UK can't?"
----

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/19/german-coalition-talks-close-to-collapse-angela-merkel

www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany/german-coalition-crisis-talks-fail-to-resolve-migrant-dispute-idUSKBN1JN0JB

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48496582

'German SPD set for three interim leaders amid coalition crisis'

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/merkel-germany-andrea-nahles-spd-cdu-coalition-afd-greens-election-a8941236.html

'Angela Merkle' s government is facing another crisis and possible collapse after the leader of her main coalition partner resigned.'

Merkle and Germany have been facing some difficult political issues for a few years due to Coalition government and the economy is on a downturn, albeit it is in a better position than most other EU nation members.

Happy to be corrected.

GG MK3

"You feel that POGS because you constantly muddle democracy and politics. Democracy cannot lie it is not a sentient being, it's a process. Politicians can and do lie and obfuscate. The problem is that you fail to understand that truth so you are constantly disappointed in democracy rather then the politics and politicians who are actually your problem."
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You bet I am disappointed in democracy and the manner and ease some people casually dispense with the principle of the meaning ' democracy' including politicians.

I do not confuse anything because democracy is to me easy to understand :-

' The belief that everyone in a country has the right to express their opinions, and that power should be held by people who are elected, or a system of government based on this belief:'

Our politicians are elected by ' the people ' and when those elected by the people decide to ask ' the people ' a question and subsequently refuse to abide by the the decision and flagrantly refuse to accept a democratically held referendum result, then to me democracy has failed.

Democracy has failed when a democratic vote takes place for whatever reason and some do not accept the outcome, hypocritically though ' if and when the outcome suits them ' they expect democracy to be upheld.

I have never witnessed such abuse of the principle of democracy both inside and outside of Parliament as there has been over the past 3 years and I fear the consequences.

Each to his/her own opinion but don' t insult because I hold a different opinion.

The bribery of the DUP by the Tories was, to my knowledge, unprecedented and I do not think that bribery would be likely to occur in any future arrangements involving parties trying to do the best for the country by acting together to prevent a no deal brexit.

^ ...but I believe that although there were compromises and mistakes, that government was much better than the undiluted Tory governments we have seen since.^

I would agree with your post, Varian, and particularly the above. Your point about Confidence and Supply agreements is true too.

However, there is nothing hypocritical at all in supporting a confidence and supply arrangement in order to do the right thing for the country and avoid a disastrous no-deal brexit.

This is what people muddle up though. Confidence and supply is simply a method of running our democracy. It is the politicians who make it appear hypocritical by their efforts to win people to vote for their party or bribing other parties to join them.

I think that if people tried to stop the overuse of the word "democracy" and substituted politician or politics they might find it all made more sense. You really cannot blame our democratic system for the way people behave.

It is like the question of democracy. It only suits/works when it agreeable to some individuals and they will not see their hypocrisy. (Wed 14-Aug-19 11:55:16)

You feel that POGS because you constantly muddle democracy and politics. Democracy cannot lie it is not a sentient being, it's a process. Politicians can and do lie and obfuscate. The problem is that you fail to understand that truth so you are constantly disappointed in democracy rather then the politics and politicians who are actually your problem.

Germany is the most successful post-WW2 European economy and has had coalition governments (apart from a short spell) since 1947. How come they can do something the UK can't?

I was a reluctant supporter of the Conservative/ Liberal Democrat coalition. It certainly damaged the LibDems who were relentlessly targetted by the Tories in 2015, got blamed for all the bad Tory policies and got no credit for the good LibDem policies which were enacted, such as taking low earners out of paying income tax, but I believe that although there were compromises and mistakes, that government was much better than the undiluted Tory governments we have seen since.

It is also important to note that the majority of those who voted in 2010 voted for one or other of the coalition partners and so it was more democratic than the usual dictatorship by a minority which results from FPTP.

The number voting for either the Tories or the DUP in 2015 was far less than 50% of those who voted.

The Liberal Democrats would not rule out ever entering into another coalition, but would not do so with a Tory Party led by Boris Johnson, or any other right wing brextreemist, nor would it go into coalition with a Corbyn led Labour Party.

However, there is nothing hypocritical at all in supporting a confidence and supply arrangement in order to do the right thing for the country and avoid a disastrous no-deal brexit

Smileless I voted to join the Common Market and like most people I had no idea that it would morph into the EU. I thought that it was a good idea from the point of view of trade. When the Maastricht Treaty was ratified in 1993 I was in favour and am still in favour.

With the advent of global corporations and the internet the world has become a much smaller place. IMHO we need the strength of the EU to enable us to tackle climate change and the activities of the multinational corporations and yet we have chosen this moment in time to leave that large group for some nebulous ideas about sovereignty and the freedom to trade with whomsoever we like. I just don't get it.

varian Wed 14-Aug-19 09:18:46

I do not believe it likely that a coalition government will be formed any time soon, but I think it entirely possible that a minority government will be supported on the basis of a confidence and supply arrangement to resolve the brexit crisis. I may be wrong, of course. It is hardly safe to predict'.

I agree but the hypocrisy that will be seen is stark

The Conservatives had a Coalition with the Lib Dems, they have a Supply and Confidence arrangement with the DUP and the anger/hatred /outrage at this style of Government that has pursued has been evident.

A Labour / SNP or another party / parties Supply and Confidence arrangement or Coalition will be seen by those who have vocally regarded with contempt the afore mentioned grouping will be suddenly content with either a Coalition or Supply and Confidence government.

It is like the question of democracy.

' It only suits / works when it agreeable to some individuals ' and they will not see their hypocrisy.

Maybe Boris would have decided to play a different ball. Who knows?

Ellan Vannin.
Would there have been a Boris had the ball landed in the court of 'remain?

I do hope that anyone who has ever voted conservative in the past and is even considering voting for them next time round takes heed of that warning. Many former conservatives have woken up to their party's lurch to the right now support the Liberal Democrats and other parties.

If Boris is unable to deliver Brexit on the 31st October 2019 and a general election is called The Brexit Party has candidates in every constituency ready and waiting. The Brexit Party will do well in Leave voting areas that have been betrayed by their Labour and Conservative Remainer MPs. I don't think Boris or the Brexit Party will join forces before an election but could well form a coalition government afterwards if needed.

One racist and bigoted comment too many SirChenjin and quite right it was reported and deleted.

I do not believe it likely that a coalition government will be formed any time soon, but I think it entirely possible that a minority government will be supported on the basis of a confidence and supply arrangement to resolve the brexit crisis. I may be wrong, of course. It is hardly safe to predict anything, especially in such uncertain times.

1) will the Tories enter coalition with the Brexit party and leave the EU

2) will the Labour party enter a coalition with the LibDems/SNP/Greens and canvass for a second referendum and remain.

Absolutely there was one - I reported it as I cannot stand racism or bigotry in any form and it was deleted. Unfortunately it was from one of the vocal Brexit proponents on here.

I was being sarcastic.

if you've seen posts of that nature, why did you post that "there's nobody who thinks like that on Gransnet"?