Johnson and Brexit

So you've seen posts like that growstuff; shocking.

That's because GN deletes such posts.

Well I've never seen a post on GN that stated "the country will be more white and Christian after we leave the EU" so I'd say you're correct growstuff that "there's nobody who thinks like that on Gransnet".

I'm interested too.

...' it's pretty obvious to me that you aren't really interested'. Actually, I AM interested so please tell me...

There was somebody on Question Time last week (?), who claimed that the country will be more white and Christian after we leave the EU. It was quite horrifying that some people even cheered him. Quite obviously, he (and they) didn't know what they voted for. Silly chumps! Fortunately, there's nobody who thinks like that on Gransnet.

According to one of my MEPs, who's spoken to other MEPs from other countries, the feeling is that they will be sorry for the UK to leave, but regard it as our choice and they're not hugely bothered. Apparently, it's strengthened solidarity amongst the other states.

My MEP was pleasantly surprised at how civil the European Parliament is compared with Westminster.

There seems to be a lot of people on here who claim to know all about the EU but it is obvious from their comments that they don't. They still claim that it is an unelected body, that it wants to stop us leaving in case other countries follow suit. But as some of us at least know - it is an elected body, as demonstrated in the recent elections - and in dealing with our request to leave they are following the guidelines set out in their constitution.

There is absolutely nothing confrontational there Smile, it’s simply my take on the situation. If you know exactly what you voted for in terms of employment rights, health care, education, legislative process and so on and you’re clear that the changes that will inevitably come as a result of Brexit (and what’s looking increasingly like a hard no deal Brexit) will bring about improvements in all these areas then great. I don’t think these improvements have been agreed, confirmed and communicated and I think that we’re in for many years of negotiations and compromise which will cost us financially as we lose many of the benefits we take for granted. However, if I have misunderstood and the T&Cs of Brexit are actually very clear in terms of the rapid benefits they will bring to everyone across the U.K. then that’s fantastic.

And that is an example of you just being interested and not wanting to be confrontational is is SirChenjin.

Once again you ignore my questions. I voted to leave the EU because I don't like what it has already become and what it looks like it's going to be. And no, I am not going to give you a detailed list of my reasons for doing so, not because I don't know what they are, but because it's pretty obvious to me that you aren't really interested.

I did that following the referendum result and none of the remainers were interested then either.

And some GN's why leavers don't want to engage in conversations on GN about Bexit.

I see that a few have fallen for the propaganda about the EU being difficult. Gove is doing his job well

It’s interesting that you believe it to be a barrage - I would have thought that it would have been very clear to you what improvements you were voting for and therefore easy to answer. It seems that you simply don’t know what you were voting for but you hope it will be better - although how or when or in what way you’ve just no idea.

I've done my best to answer your questions SirChenjin; you have ignored mine.

We don't need experts to tell us things will change, of course they will. That's why those who voted leave voted to leave. They wanted change. It may not be the change remainers wanted but it was what the majority of those who voted, voted for.

Experts against Brexit foresee doom and gloom and experts for Brexit see an eventual improvement. But none of the experts have a crystal ball, no one knows the eventual affects of leaving the EU until it happens.

What is clear though is that the doom and gloom predictions in the immediate aftermath of the referendum haven't come to pass. The country did not go into recession and it has been said very recently that a recession is not on the cards.

You say you have reservations about the system but voted to remain. I have reservations so voted to leave.

Of course the cost of Brexit is huge growstuff because more than 3 years since the referendum result, we haven't left. Too much money and time has been spent on trying to negotiate with the EU who don't want to negotiate.

The EU wants to make Brexit unpalatable so other members will be deterred from leaving. It wants us to remain because we are one of the biggest financial contributors.

Why do you think the EU tried to dissuade Cameron from having the referendum? Could it be because they know there are problems and there was a distinct possibility that the vote would be to leave, and that could open the door for other members to do likewise?

Here's an idea; instead of barraging me with your questions, why don't you try answering some of mine.

So how do you think anything will improve, Smileless? It won't just stay the same. For a start, we've seen how much Brexit has cost the Treasury and it really won't stop there.

Yes, you voted leave - to get what? Again, you haven’t answered the question about putting your signature to something without knowing what the T&Cs are - I presume you wouldn’t?

As for how do I know it will change? Because as Jura says - every expert has says it will! Now, I didn’t believe those changes would necessarily be for the better which is why I voted to remain, (albeit in a system which I have reservations about) but the leavers obviously do - although they’ve no idea how, or why, or when, or in what way. I just don’t have that blind faith - I question too much and I want to know what the T&Cs are.

Sorry, I haven't read this thread, but why, whenever I see the heading, do I read "Johnson and Johnson"

Apologies to all those who do the politics threads.

That just about sums it up, Greta. (IMO of course)

SirChenjin those who voted against EU membership did so having seen what the EU stood for, what the EU's past performance has been and on balance didn't like being a member, so voted to leave.

Smileless 'Every time I vote in a GE, I do so without knowing for certain what changes may occur as I don't know if the pre election promises and reassurances I'm given will be kept. '

well, yes but every 4 years or so, you get to vote again if you are not happy. You won't with Brexit.

But for effects of No deal Brexit - I trust the experts with vast knowledge and long term experience in the fields- be it hauliers, or doctors and pharmacists, or air control, customs officers, EU legal specialists, experienced international negotiators, etc, etc. Most of what they say just makes sense.

Why is every aspect of our lives going to change to a greater or lesser degree if we leave the EU? You don't know that this will be the case, and if it is the case, why is the assumption by some, that any changes will be for the worse?

Surely if your assumption that leavers don't think there will be any major change is correct, why do you then say they will believe it will be better; better would be a major change.

Were those who voted for our membership of the Common Market aware that that would eventually morph into the European Union? Was anyone aware that the creation of the EU was one of the terms and conditions?

Every time I vote in a GE, I do so without knowing for certain what changes may occur as I don't know if the pre election promises and reassurances I'm given will be kept.

The arguments given by both sides on the run up to the referendum were flawed on both sides. You voted according to what you believed would be the best for the country and so did I.

Although I was told, in no uncertain terms that quotes were made this morning from the Guardian, it appears it was actually the Comres poll for the Telegraph and its comments that were repeated in that paper.

Full Facts have now investigated the way that was presented (in the Telegraph) and found the Telegraph’s poll figures on suspending parliament are misleading as I suggested they were. fullfact.org/europe/telegraph-suspending-parliament/

The Telegraph claimed (as did others picking up on their report) that "Boris Johnson has the support of more than half of the public to deliver Brexit by any means, including suspending Parliament, according to a poll."

Full Facts concluded that this is incorrect. "The poll showed that 44%, not a majority, agreed with the statement." They also found there were other issues with the poll.

On the front page, as you can see, they have claimed that half the public has supported Johnson. They calculated this by totally inappropriately excluding "don't knows".

The question itself would have been struck out of any questionnaire put together under normal standards. Full Fact report that the question was:

“Do you agree or disagree with the following statements?
“Boris needs to deliver Brexit by any means, including suspending parliament if necessary, in order to prevent MPs from stopping it.”

They query the fact that "implicit in the statement is the idea that parliament will definitely stop Brexit. Not delay, but stop Brexit. This essentially inflates the perceived risk to Brexit of not proroguing parliament."

In their view, by making it seem that leaving the EU in this way Brexit might be delivered might lead more people to agree with the statement.

The Telegraph does admit in the article that this only represented of people in Great Britain - excluding the people of Ireland, who voted to remain.

A poor show from anyone's point of view I would have thought.

SirChenjin: Would you put your signature to any other major change in your life without reading and understanding the T&Cs?

Of course not. I believe that many people do feel neglected and ignored. The referendum gave them a voice. They needed a scapegoat for austerity and hardship and that scapegoat was the EU. I sense that it is inappropriate to suggest that people who voted leave didn't understand what they voted for but in my opinion some did not, or could not, consider the complexities. Not surprising since we were told that leaving the EU would be a piece of cake!

Can’t

Absolutely Smile - but I would have a clear idea of what the party stood for, what their past performance was and if we didn’t like what they were doing we could vote them out. Brexit isn’t like party politics though - we forget to change our minds in a couple of years if it’s not to our liking and it is a huge unknown that affects everything across our lives.

Of course life will go on - but leavers don’t just think there won’t be any major change, they believe it will be better. None of them can explain how though - they just ‘think’. I’ll ask again - would you put your signature to any other major change without knowing what the T&Cs were? My bet is you wouldn’t (although I don’t know you obviously, so perhaps you would be happy to) - most people would want reassurances and explanations before they signed up to anything that would change every aspect of their life to a greater or lesser degree.