The economy.

I'm talking about articles in The Guardian. varian. Give them a read! It's certainly not right wing press.

To suggest that only stupid people voted to Leave just invalidates your point.

There's no need to try to prove your superior intellect. You might be wrong at times.

Also Davidhs, the EU are close to securing a deal with South American countries to do exactly what you're concerned we'd do with a No Deal Brexit. Farmers across the EU aren't happy obviously.

Of course it's our choice if we choose to buy it. But it looks like it will be over here, Brexit or No Brexit.

I live in a rural area.

I have never met a stupid farmer and I have never met a farmer who voted leave.

The NFU represents most farmers, certainly the intelligent, responsible ones. There might be a small number of farmers who are represented by the "brexit party.

No sector of society was completely immune from the brainwashing that we were all subjected to by the right wing media for many years.

Well Davidhs, it appears from this forum that most farmers back Remain. So many opinions!

Not sure that the NFU is respected by all farmers, varian. They take a whole lot of cash and give little back. There's another article in The Guardian.

Farmers for Britain was started by George Eustace of DEFRA in 2016 vowing that farm payments would be at least equivalent to present rates maybe more. We now know that is not true, in addition the name is now being used by Brexiteers to give the impression that most farmers back leave this is not true.
It is just a government propaganda arm, one of many I suspect

The farmers I know voted Remain. There might be a few farmers who were persuaded against their better interests to vote Leave, but quite a few of these have changed their minds.

The person whose opinion we should respect is NFU President (a farmer elected by the members of the NFU) who has described the effect of a potential no-deal brexit on the agricultural industry as "catastrophic"

twitter.com/channel4news/status/1097841785173393409?lang=en

The EU has just done a deal with the South American Countries, (Sorry I cannot recall the name they call themselves) to import beef and other goods into the EU.

day6 our foreign aid budget has always been entirely within our remit, the EU has never had influence.

I see the posters on the roadside and they seem ambiguous to me I’ve no idea who put them up maybe “ Farmers for Britain”.

Sorry Day6 I've already explained why helping out poorer countries is in our interest so don't intend to do so again.

My point is that we should not decide by judging what is wrong with the EU, or blaming them because they won't give us what we want. We should simply be looking at the implications of leaving without a deal or staying. Only then can we work out what is best for the UK.

It is so easy to call M Carney a 'Remainer' as if that damns him but he will have thought it all through and calculated that remaining is better for the country. Remainer is used in a derogatory way as if those who want to remain are automatically wrong! An expert is an expert whether they wish to stay or go and their opinion is valuable.

Day6

Farmers for Britain do not represent farmers, the National Farmers Union do that and they are solidly against Brexit for a whole host of reasons. The CAP is not universal across all 27 countries, each nation has a considerable degree of flexibility and we see this in the UK. England, Wales, Scotland and NI have their own variations. The indication so far is that payments to farmers is going the halve when a national scheme is introduced, but there is yet no commitment to anything.

Although farmers don’t like all the CAP regulations over the years most have benefited by membership, the exception being intensive Pig and Poultry industries. One complaint amongst farmers is the arbitrary withdraw of many chemicals by EU regulation, this makes life more difficult for producers.

There are 2 big problem sectors, Beef and Sheep, there is a 40% tariff on produce from outside the EU, without that you are going to be eating meat from Argentina, Australia, USA, Brazil and lots of other countries. That is going to be produced to entirely different welfare, environmental and hygiene standards, so you will be getting hormone treated Beef raised in feedlots numbering 10000 plus and traveling about 7000 food miles.
Your choice.

the UK will not become perfect by leaving.

Of course it won't, Nonnie. No one imagines it will.

Please tell me of a place which is just perfect? We will continue to have our problems but they won't be compounded by us having to agree or go along with the needs and desires of 27 very different countries and the Brussels ring-master. Many of them are eastern European countries without large economies who take rather than contribute to the budget. Yet we are duty bound to consider their needs as well as the needs of Germany, Italy, Greece, Sweden, etc, etc, etc.

We will determine in future where our foreign aid budget is spent and (with funds no longer paid to the EU), the ways in which we will improve our islands and the life of the people living here. We will also continue to welcome people from all over the world who will contribute to our economy and society. We will continue to trade with European countries.

It sounds like a better, more manageable and agreeable deal to me.

And millions of others who voted to leave the EU.

Well I know a fair few farmers who are quite pleased about Brexit actually. But anecdotal evidence is pointless.

However, there was an article written in The Guardian last year. Excellent piece. I know a lot you like The Guardian.

George Monbiot wrote it. A Remainer. This is the headline if you wish to read.

""The one good thing about Brexit? Leaving the EU’s disgraceful farming system""

The fact is nobody knows much about anything. Especially people on forums. They just know how to argue and fight for their corner. Which is fine. But we only know what we read. And for logical reasons you look for evidence and articles which have similar opinions to yourselves.

Also, for every expert's opinion, you will always find another expert totally contradicting it.

Carney is only the governor of the Bank of England so I expect leavers on here have far more knowledge of the economy

Well of course you have faith in Remainer Canadian Carney. It was very embarrassing that he got all of his gloomy predictions very wrong after the referendum. Things he predicted as part of Project Fear did not come to pass.

Now he is hedging his bets again, as Urmstongranpointed out. What are the odds he is giving? One in three chances of getting it right?

It's laughable.

Day6 I don't know if all you say is true or propaganda but none of it is the point. We all know the EU is far from perfect but the UK will not become perfect by leaving. Better to stick with what we know and try to improve it than leave and beg people to do deals with us.

This is what is going to happen to us, if you are happy about it then I think you and deluding yourself. www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/19/what-a-no-deal-brexit-could-mean-for-the-uk-in-five-charts

Well, Day6, all of your post sounds like wishful thinking, too. It remains to be seen which is right, Leavers or Remainers. My money is on the latter, of course.

The collapse of the EU sounds like wishful thinking from Project Fear ;-)

Whereas, the failure of the UK when it leaves the EU seems to be the desire of most Remainers. They cling to the EU and their grievances even though they lost the referendum and now predict dire times without Brussels holding our hand.

Leavers have read enough to appreciate the EU is very flawed, and not much appreciated across Europe. I see it as a rescue mission for the UK, as do others. Look at local elections in member states and the discontent of the people across the continent.. There are genuine concerns that we will be involved in an undemocratic European federation before long for which we will continue to pay billions every year but have very little, if any, say.

We will continue to trade with the EU, and they will want British goods and services. We stand or fall by our own efforts. We won't be dragged down by the creaking EU, and we will also be billions better off every single year. We will be able to finance the natural adjustments which have to be made and any period of transition once we leave.

It's a much healthier situation.

I didn't understand the significance of your apparently random post about the farmers' signs, either Day6.

I have no idea which post the bit you quoted came from or what is so special about farmers having 'Thank you for supporting British farming' notices up (not that I've seen any at all around my way). Is there meant to be a Brexit connection in there? We've been exhorted to buy British meat for decades via various campaigns.

Farmers I know were appalled by the referendum result. I understand that, like the rest of the country, they were split pretty well 50/50 on Remaining or Leaving.

I simply don’t understand the significance of your post about the farmers posters

So what?

So what? How polite. Are you the guardian of the thread or something?

I am answering a previous post. It is allowed.

I did quote an extract of it, in case you failed to notice Whitewave. In fact, I feel sure you failed to notice.

We know British fishermen have grievances with the EU. So do British farmers.

Farmers For Britain - their mission. This is just a small part giving reasons why the EU is creating issues which make life more difficult for them. It's all in the link below.

www.farmersforbritain.co.uk/our-issue-with-the-eu

"1. We want to see an increase in Food Production. The CAP makes this more difficult."

"Fundamental to the survival of the United Kingdom’s rural economy is an increase in food production, and this is hindered by our membership of the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP)."

"It is, understandably, a difficult enterprise to agree on regulations that apply to 28 member states. As a result of this, UK farmers are often forced to compromise"

The CAP fails to recognise and support the unique needs of UK farmers.

The CAP fails to recognise the differences and unique needs of the agricultural industries in each of its member states. The ‘one-size-fits-all’ policy does not work for the UK’s farmers and is failing certain sectors, particularly the Dairy industry, in a big way. Only outside the EU can the government tailor subsidies to support farmers in a truly efficient and effective way.

George Eustice, Minister of State for Farming (2016) said: ‘I see exceptional talent and technical expertise within DEFRA but it is constrained and hindered by the EU. Rather than being free to construct new ideas and fresh ways of doing things, our policy officials spend their days fretting about whether they are complying with this or that regulation.'

'If we have the courage to take back control, we would be free to think again and could achieve so much more for farmers and our environment.’

The collapse of the EU sounds like wishful thinking from Project Fear ;-)

POGS I follow UK markets more than others and US probably next. There is significant variation between different EU members but I don't understand how that is relevant. Surely it is our economy that matters and how it is likely to be damaged?

I know some have said the EU is in a terrible state and will collapse and it is interesting to speculate but makes no difference to the facts. If we stay in and it collapses we will be no worse off than if we leave, we will be better off. Our economy has thrived overall since we joined the EU and it must be clear to every thinking person by now that it will plunge after 31st October.

To suggest that all the experts who predict that we will be worse off are gloom and doom merchants is completely wrong. I think that those who do so do it because they don't have any evidence to the contrary. One simple fact is that in 2016 a £ bought 1.62$, today it buys 1.21$. That means it costs us 25% more to buy from abroad.

day6 I simply don’t understand the significance of your post about the farmers posters.

So what?

I have for years bought nothing else but British organic grass feed meat from a farmer.