A very English Brexit

I recognise those scenarios varian (apart from the ^calcium powder!) Probably that is why the 60s and 70s seemed so abundant .

I live in a rural area and it voted remain, although part of the constituency, more urbanised, voted overwhelmingly to leave.

simple enough ...

but they know ...

In our very rural area, the vote was split pretty much 50/50 but that was three years ago.

Opinion has changed as we've learned so much more about the fraudulent referendum and the appalling consequenses of what is now being proposed - a no-deal brexit.

Most people here now want us to Remain in the EU. If you don't believe this, then test it with another vote.

I'd say it was 'city centric' - but now people realise the effect it will have on agriculture and jobs- things are changing fast.

Remainers are city-centric. Nearly all the urban areas, apart from Birmingham, voted Remain.

When were the "good old days". My OH can remember the war, sheltering in the Anderson shelter and listening for the doodlebugs - you had to be afraid when their noise cut out.

I can remember the late forties and early fifties when we had rationing and my great grandmother sometimes gave me her sweetie ration if I'd been very good. Looking back I can see that the government of the day was very keen to preserve the health of small children. We were given doses of castor oil, calcium powder, horrible sweet orange juice and virol (whatever that was). . No-one had central heating so in the winter you could scrape the ice off the inside of your windows.

When the coalman passed along the road, my Dad would race out to collect the horses' deposits to put on his allotmemt. Hardly anyone had a car and if they did they would certainly never have used it to take children to school. We walked or travelled by public transport and in the winter our little knees were sore and chapped because we fell over on the ice and girls didn't have tights or trousers, just knee length skirts and long socks.

We were happy enough at the time because we knew nothing else and children always accept their circumstances as normal, but I certainly would not want my grandchildren to have to return to these "good old days".

I want my grandchildren to enjoy all the benefits and improvements to life we have seen since then - and that very much includes out membership of the European Union.

'Funny' that Brexiters often say Remainers are very London centric - and yet is it now clear it is massively English centric.

Away for a few days, several people from EU countries and the USA said to us 'it sounds like a Civil War' is brewing in the UK'.

Everyone is giving anecdotal examples, though, their personal experiences, so no-one can claim it as universal.

1970: a house with central heating - yes
Some double glazing - yes
Furniture - some good quslity secondhand, some new
Modern decor (albeit that hideous style but it seemed on trend)
Yes, we did have winter coats and boots. Some of us even had hats, gloves and scarves although we may have knitted them.
There was a plethora of fabric shops so we could make our own and children's clothes - or go to M&S, C&A , department stores etc.

If someone moved to a flat share in London I'm not surprised they found it depressing. I did too.
And the trains can be worse now!
I didn't find France any brighter, better or more luxurious in the 1960s than GB was.

I think C&A came to us from Holland though, thank you.

The main reason for people voting to return to 'the good old days' is because they were young then, everything is great when you are young, the war was likely exciting for children but not so for the women who were working in grim conditions in factories and munitions and trying to feed a family on barely anything. Why anyone would get nostalgic about that, let alone the one or two deluded individuals on here who think that a return to wartime diet would be good for us,.....oh and likely keep us in our place too, none of this modern day speaking your mind leftie nonsense

In the late 60's early 70's my parents lived in Holland. When we used to go over to stay we were amazed at how affluent and modern Holland was and the wonderful things in the shops that just weren't available here. Their supermarkets were like Waitrose is now with a huge range of high quality foods.

When we came home it always felt like returning to the dark ages.

Greta, you describe it so well (Thu 08-Aug-19 12:03:30), I can only think people have very selective memories.

During the 70s my brother was stationed in Germany. We loved to visit and felt very at home there. I was born in Germany and my father was stationed there directly after the end of the war and repeatedly after that.

I could not get over how well everyone seemed to be doing. Everywhere we went was clean - which is more than could be said here and even those who were obviously not so well off were well dressed. There was a good choice of local and imported foods in the shops and a noticeable lack of constant grumbling.

I love this country but I do try not to be blind to the truth.

The English upper class now gets it power from commerce. Just like Trump.

For all who are banging on about democracy.

Scotland VOTED for the SNP .The SNP has as its core policy Independence .Therefore Nicola Sturgeon has a mandate FOR Independence .Like it or not when the same party has a majority for 10 years and there are tens of thousands of grass roots supporters taking to the streets every week then Independence is going to be the topic we talk about .

The support is rising daily with the BREXIT problem.Brexit will decimate our economy ,that is widely acknowledged EVEN by Ruth Davidson your pet Tory down south ..though she has fallen out of favour .
I would love tosee the Celtic nations take back control of their countries ,Up until the Irish parted company with WM in 1922 there were accounts published that showed we paid in 68% more than we got back ,the rest was spent on "Imperial services " while people in Scotland lived in slums. .Churchill even sent tanks in to quell our attempts to get fairer hours at work .
Once Ireland went the accounts stopped being published ..simply because they didn't want us to realise that we could be like ireland and be in charge of ALL our income and laws.Read Mc Crone and see that life hasn't changed .

We still contribute far more than we get back,we have NO say in WM becaus 85% of MP's are English and outnumber us by 10-1 or more .Democracy doesn't exist in the Union.Scotland needs to get out ,before we're dragged under by boris and co .

Same here, Greta. I worked in Germany just after the UK joined the Common Market and it was an eye-opener.

PS. I can't say I was too impressed with the days I spent in a number of offices getting my work visa, opening a bank account or getting a health check, but that was all before freedom of movement.

Nonnie, I agree with all your points, but am too lazy to write them and you got there first.

Notagranyet2's account of her experience of Britain in the 1970s mirrors mine. I had spent my childhood and youth in Sweden and later lived and worked in Germany and Switzerland. I arrived in the UK in 1971 and I must say it was a culture shock. This is how I experienced things:

Housing – many houses were small, no central heating, no double glazing. I rented a room when I first arrived in London and there was a strange object on the floor that I had to put coins in! I lived in Kensington and later Hampstead and I don't believe they were considered poor areas.

Telephones – many people did not own one.

Electrical appliances – I bought an electric hair dryer. When I opened the box I noticed there was no plug attached; I took the dryer back to the store and asked for my money back not realising I had to put the plug on myself.

Furniture – oh dear. Often very little choice and poor quality unless you had a lot of money.

Transport – I frequently travelled by train. They seemed to pride themselves on being late or cancelled. Also, non-corridor compartments were in use, hardly the safest way to travel. Something else I found extraordinary was that adult car passengers could sit with a child on their laps – completely unrestrained. Apparently it was allowed.

Food – just one word – Mother's Pride bread

Clothes – yes, I also found that many people were badly dressed. Even in winter I saw women swearing sandals.

Class – and how that determined your whole existence.

I know some of you will disagree with me but what I have outlined above is my experience. If you have always lived in one place you have nothing to compare with.

Comparing the country I arrived in in 1971 and the country I live in now is like comparing night and day. It saddens me that 52% of the electorate now wants to return to the ”good old days”.

When did we all become so selfish? We seem to have turned into the ME, ME, ME generation. Why can't we look at the greater good?

We pay annual membership to both English Heritage and National Trust and some years don't use them at all. We do it because it is for the greater good and preserves our heritage. Why can't we all stop being so mean spirited?

It is so easy to moan about everything but look at the bigger picture. Why can't parliament agree? Because many of them recognise that leaving the EU will be bad for us all. Surely after 3 years the only sensible thing to do is give us the facts and ask us to vote on them. Simply revoking A50 would be too harsh and divisive.

RosieLeah Wed 07-Aug-19 20:58:28 you can take us out of the EU but not the Internet. All the English language stuff will still be there and that is the major cause of the decline in standards. The decline has nothing at all to do with the EU.

Jilly I too am puzzled. I seem to have missed the reason why an EU army is a bad thing. Please explain.

What are the negatives of being a US of Europe, although that is not going to happen?

Your first point, I'm sorry to say is very narrow. When we help out poorer countries their economy improves which means they buy more from us and in the end it is better all round. Would you help a weaker member of your family to get back on their feet?

Let us just go back to why we had the referendum. It was because so many MPs were supporting UKIP. Cameron wanted to show that the new party had little support, and they were wasting their time. He got the mood of the people wrong.

Perhaps the whole thing should have been dealt with differently. Perhaps a debate in the Commons might have been better....the pros and cons of being in the EU...then a vote for whether it was worth 'going to the people'.

That way, perhaps all the little details might have been made public and voters might have been fully informed of the reality. Many people voted in an emotional way, rather than considering the benefits and drawbacks. It's also true that, as always with any election, people are concerned about how they personally are affected.

As I'm in my latter years, I have no personal issues and in fact, my own children are better off if we stay in the EU. However, I'm concerned with the future of Great Britain and Europe as a whole and I would like to see the EU return to being the Common Market, as it was when we first joined.

Ellpammar19 Wed 07-Aug-19 13:27:47 Why do you say the EU is undemocratic, we had the EU elections not long ago and the Commissioners are appointed by each country. They also have civil servants just like us.

I think you will find that most of us are thinking about our grandchildren and the country they will have to live in. It is fine to object to aspects of the EU, we all do, but surely you should also think about the implications of leaving? Have you seen the WTO tariffs list? Doesn't that bother you? Yes, definitely'better the devil you know' stay where we are rather than going cap in hand round the world for some sort of deal.

Notagranyet2 Wed 07-Aug-19 15:57:32 Well said.

minnie you were lucky in the 70s but did you have equal pay with men? Have you benefited from all the EU employment law?

Things will become temporarily unavailable as the Ex-CEO of Sainsburys has said but we will survive although the costs will go up and I have no idea how poor people will manage. Of course importing manufacturing parts will become much more expensive with the result that some firms will be forced to close down. So easy for those of us on pensions to ignore what younger people will have to face.

Good grief! What's with the childish and snide comments?

I was perfectly prepared to shrug my shoulders and accept the referendum result in 2016. However, as I've found out more about the people behind it, the "dark money", the manipulation techniques and the mentality of many people who voted to leave, I've become increasingly angry.

RosieLeah, You have a very simplistic view of democracy (you're not alone). People have written thousands of books about the meaning of democracy. I'm sure you could find a few, by different authors to give you a balanced view and enlighten you as to the complexity of the issue.

The referendum was NOT the same as a general election. We have an opportunity to vote for a new government every five years and a change of government does not result in the kind of upheaval caused by Brexit.

Yes, MaisieD..it's all pretty pathetic isn't it? Here we are in the middle of summer, stuck indoors and arguing with strangers. Why aren't we outside enjoying the weather before that belt of rain arrives?

For me, I have an allergy to sunshine so have to stay indoors. Plus there are roadworks right outside my window and I can't concentrate on my sewing, which is what I should be doing.

By the way, if the result of the referendum had been Remain, would you have accepted it...even if the majority were only miniscule? Or does democracy not work when the result is not what you wanted?