A very English Brexit

It's not just our contribution which matters. The EU provides a market for our products. The single market/customs union means that, for example, car production in Sunderland is possible. Parts are shipped across borders with no delay, then the finished cars are exported, again with no delay at the border. Nissan has already decided to relocate some of its business to Japan, but it makes sense for them to relocate the European production to Spain (or elsewhere within the EU). Not only will jobs be lost at Nissan itself, but thousands of others in the supply chain and in the outlets where Nissan workers spend their money. That money isn't calculated in the contribution/rebate. Not only that, but some areas of the UK receive massive amounts of EU funding and I wouldn't hold my breath that the UK government will make up any shortfall.

Many folk said in 2016 that they would respect the result of the referendum, but since then we have all learned that the referendum was fraudulent. It was influenced by foreign interference, dark money and won by lies and illegal manipulation of social media.

It is no longer possible for any moral person who believes in democracy to respect the result of that fraudulent referendum.

We do not all want to be Putin's puppets or to be ruled by a dishonest band of billionaire media owners and hedge fund gamblers who would profit from our misery if brexit is not stopped.

The illegal activities which influenced the votes of 17m people (out of a population of 66m) have been proven in court and the only reason that the result has not been annulled is because it was only advisory.

This post is not about Brexit it is purely an anti-English post. (Wed 07-Aug-19 18:50:34)

Well Lumarei, I started the thread and I most certainly didn't intend it to be "anti" anything. I was just pointing a few things out and wondering if we should have an English Parliament. I am English and think it would be a good idea, even a necessity. People decided to discuss other aspects - it happens.

Yes, Gracesgran, a 'like or agree' box is an option on other sites and should be on this site too. There are many times when I have agreed with what someone has posted but have nothing to add.

On the subject of a united Europe preventing another war, I can't see the reasoning behind that. The last two wars were caused by individuals not a country. There is always the possibility of another megalomaniac gaining enough support to lay the foundations for war.

Now I have to word this carefully otherwise it will be deleted.

There are now diverse communities with different cultures
being formed all across Europe. This in itself is bound to cause division among people. We have already had several attacks by so-called 'terrorists'.

There are too many people burying their heads in the sand and refusing to accept that there are those taking advantage of the current free movement to enter Europe and carry out the wishes of those who hate the west and seek to destroy it.

The next war will be waged against Europe by outsiders. There have been previous attempts to invade and destroy us. This time it will happen with our full co-operation.

Wed 07-Aug-19 18:44:00 The agree box keeps being mentioned railman but I don't think GNHQ want it.

The reason I voted to leave EU is because there are only 5 countries out of 27 who are net contributors. The other countries just take. (Wed 07-Aug-19 18:16:35)

How right Oscar Wilde was when he said (or rather had Lord Darlington say) that a cynic "knows the price of everything and the value of nothing". You are a true cynic newnanny. What price peace within Europe for example?

^You will recall we held a referendum and [of] the majority of those voting want to leave, England voted overwhelmingly to leave if you look at the Constituency results. That is what we call democracy. Wed 07-Aug-19 13:05:33

Hope I was reading this correctly Anniel. You are really repeating what I was saying. It is a very English Brexit.

This post is not about Brexit it is purely an anti English post. The only intent the OP has is to voice her anti English views and Brexit is just the lever to create a war of words.
In case you wonder. I am not English but from a European country (lived here for over 30 years) and as much as I would have liked to remain in Europe I respect the vote of 2016. GB is the cradle of democracy. Shame about the terrible division and hatred it has created.
There seems to be a trend that the vote of the people doesn’t need to be respected. Nicola Sturgeon is one of those who thinks the Scottish referendum should be repeated until she likes the result

CracesGranMK3 - the inclusion of an agree box is a good idea Graces - hope the admin is listening

JillyBird - I take your points, but clearly I would disagree with certain aspects. This for instance:

3. I don't want to be a member of the United States of Europe and neither do I wish to contribute to a "peace-keeping" force (army) for Europe which is the next thing mooted.

It was Winston Churchill who first coined the phrase "United States of Europe" as perhaps the ultimate means of preventing another catastrophic war.

I think though your reference to the "European Army" conflates two issues.

a) The EU Rapid Response Unit - which was set up in 2000, and mentioned in the Daily Telegraph at that time with the inference that "EU launches its own army". Source:: blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/eu-launches-its-own-army/

b) Article 42(6) of the Treaty on European Union (TEU) (*Lisbon Treaty*) provides the possibility for a group of like-minded Member States to take European defence to the next level.

I think the key word in the last statement is could.
Source: ec.europa.eu/epsc/publications/strategic-notes/defence-europe_en

You will recall we held a referendum and [of] the majority of those voting want to leave England voted overwhelmingly to leave if you look at the Constituency results. Wed 07-Aug-19 13:05:33

I hope I am reading this correctly Anniel. If so you are repeating what I said in the OP. This was a very English Brexit as you will no doubt "recall" that Scotland voted for remain as did Northern Ireland and you may even be aware that Wales now seems to have changed its mind.

I agree this is how democracy works. When offered an advisory referendum we vote to advise Parliament. However, democracy did not stop on one day in 2016 - or do you believe it did?

FC61 Wed 07-Aug-19 12:40:41,
Gizzy48 Wed 07-Aug-19 12:53:11

I thought both your post explained things well. I just wish we had an "I agree" box at the bottom of posts.

newnanny your numbers are a bit out I think - thought this might help?

In 2018 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was forecast to be £4 billion. So the UK’s ‘net contribution’ was estimated at nearly £9 billion. Source: fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

Or this:
The UK contribution to the EU budget Source: www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/theukcontributiontotheeubudget/2017-10-31

What a lot of tosh, GraceGranMK3 . Paperbackwriter Wed 07-Aug-19 12:28:42

I have no idea what you read or where you read it but I certainly didn't write it. Before you start on someone you could just check you have the right person Paperbackwriter It seems, in this instance, the "tosh" is all yours.

What has the EU ever done for us?

The reason I voted to leave EU is because there are only 5 countries out of 27 who are net contributors. The other countries just take. Our social care system desperately needs money but we send so much to EU and get back little in return. We get some back but EU dictates what it is spent on. If we stay in our bill will be £18 billion per annum. It is madness channeling so much UK money to EU so they can move from Brussels to Strasberg every month and buy wine costing over €100 a bottle for Junker, not to mention sending a jet to pick up his dog.

Yes we pay money in, but get the benefits of membership back, not necessarily in terms of £££. Germany and France put more in than us. You don’t expect to get back every penny you pay into a club if you get reciprocal benefits. You are paying for the services you get. We are only just realising this as we have to shell out billions for extra staff , expertise we don’t have etc which is contributing to the current shambles that is Brexit, you can’t pretend it’s all marvellous any longer. We are not remotely ready as our apology for a government have spent 3 years being smug Brits and relying on fag packet planning which basically means doing nothing.

libra10 Wed 07-Aug-19 11:26:38
A total generalisation by the OP GracesGranMK3!

I'm certainly not a member of the upper claaaaaas, yet decided to vote to leave the EU.

If you read things instead of guessing what they were about you would see I was referring to our Parliament. If you are an MP I apologise. If you are not, you owe me an apology for attacking me personally without a clue what you are talking about.

Notagranyet2 Spot on!

Are you saying the majority of people in England who voted for Brexit are rich Etonians?

Yet at the same time, back in the 70’s, it seemed like a poorer place with poorer housing, people looked as if they’d bought all their clothes from second-hand shops and personal wealth was not visible.
I don't think that is true.

Fantasy days of your childhood, like the 70’s when you rightly had no cares in the world? Of course you wouldn’t, you were a child, but your parents would have been well aware of the economic problems around at that time.

I think you may find that many Gransnetters were not children in the 1970s, many would have been young mothers by then with their own homes, furnished in the latest styles, I remember the vibrancy of the 60s and 70s fashions, the sense of optimism.
However, I do remember the three day weeks of the 1970s, the depressing strikes which may have made Britain seem a depressing place to live for a while so perhaps that is what you may recall, Notagranyet2, which is rather a sad memory.
It did seem to me that Britain in the 1960s was a more vibrant, wealthier and happier country than France where I lived for a while in the mid 1960s.

Fair points well put Jillybird - I suggest you duck now.....

<3 it

I appreciate your comment, railman. It's fine to agree and disagree!

I worked in a bank in 1978 and my first wage was £47 a week. Which appears to have been quite a bit more than the national average.

But time has changed so much about how we live. Technology since the 70s has changed society. And that's thanks to USA and the Far East. Not because we joined the EU.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.