Corbyn as caretaker

Neither did the Tories

Grandad

Here we go again!

You said:-

"In the above, you had asked me in a previous post to outline that position in my view, to which I responded with:-
"Jeremy Corbyn has stated in recent weeks that should the Labour Party win a General Election, then as government, the party would seek to gain better terms for the Brexit withdrawal agreement from the European Union.

In those negotiations, Britain leaving with no deal would be taken off the table, and at the conclusion of those talks whatever the outcome be (either good or bad) would be placed before the British Electorate."

So if Labour says it will negotiate for ' better terms' that is Labour saying it is NOT a REMAIN party. Corbyn Labour however throws the curve ball/ the flip flop, fence sitting comment it would ' CAMPAIGN TO REMAIN' if there is another Referendum. It is not plausible and that is why nobody can say a simple Yes or No to the question ' Is Labour a Party of LEAVE or REMAIN.

The so called Unity Government is a sham concocted of Parties who are not United as to Final Solution. It matters not a jot who the ' Unelected Prime Minister ' would be Corby/Clark whichever name surfaces because they would not agree, unless they shift their red lines. Somebody will have to lose their principles and I don't see the Lib Dems/Greens shifting, they won't even respect the result of a 2nd Referendum if it does not agree with them. What does that say to voter!

It will be an extention of the squabbling , partisan politics, attempt to grab power by the same MP 's who cannot decide between them a compromise.

Corbyn/Labour have set their policy to get a General Election ' at any cost ' and are still attempting to do so. What will the Labour Manifesto say? Does it matter because they haven' t been seen to follow their last one.

pogs I could ask the same question of the Tory party.

I accept that the hard right faction is almost certainly for a no deal brexit, but they are in the minority.

the UK politicians will never allow any deal under the sun to go through Parliament that contains the backstop!

Some UK politicians, Jabberwock, some.

Didn't Johnson vote for the WA? It was scuppered by the ERG group.

I think your post points inexorably towards revocation of A50. Anything else destroys the UK even more than at present.

This is a question I have asked ' repeatedly ' on various threads and I too am getting no response that I can see simply gives a ' DEFINED and CLEAR , UNEQUIVOCAL ' answer.

My question is simple and I expect a simple answer in return, from anybody.

' Is Labour a Remain or Leave Party.'

It has everything to do with Boris Johnson, a serial liar and leader of the lying Leave campaign.

It is untrue to say that "the only alternative is no deal.

The best alternative is no brexit.

I do not normally advertise The Sunday Times, but I strongly recommend that anyone who still thinks a no-deal brexit is a good idea should read it today (pages 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5)

The EU have insisted on the backstop, the UK politicians will never allow any deal under the sun to go through Parliament that contains the backstop! If neither side will move an inch on the backstop what's the point of trying for an extension in the forlorn hope of a new deal which will clearly go absolutely nowhere before any discussion starts, because it can't!!! (because of the backstop that no one will budge on!) So at the end of the day whenever that is, under article 50 the only alternative is no deal!! All Boris is doing is trying to deliver what both sides of the H of C have been promising not once but god knows how many times, for the past three years, what MP' s have signed up to, prattled on about again and again , a deal that no one agreed to, with an opposition that no one knows what they think particularly them! The reason we are where we are, has little to do with Boris but everything to do with having the most incompetent, dishonest disgraceful set of MP's since the war!

Callistemon, Johnson has not attempted any new negotiations. He has "demanded" that the EU drop the Irish backstop before any talks can begin.

The above Johnson recognises is entirely unacceptable to the EU if only for their own protection. Hence, the need for a "vote of no confidence" to succeed, and a General Election to be held.

MaizieD : 'Jeez! NO-ONE ACTUALLY SAID THAT, jura. '

what do you mean. This was copied from MinnieMoo's first paragraph in her post yesterday, on this thread, at 23.23.50

I presumed that Johnson was going to attempt some more negotiations and that no deal was a last resort, an extreme bargaining tool. The hope for many was that this could encourage the EU to soften their intransigent position.

As Corbyn has now decided to 'muddy the waters' then perhaps that opportunity will be lost.

jura we cannot know what Corbyn thinks as most doubt that he himself knows; his convictions were always Eurosceptic but his pronouncements rather vague. One presumes he waits for instructions from his group of 'advisers', McCluskey et al.

I believe what Corbyn stated in regard to a second referendum was that should the Labour Party win a General Election in the coming few weeks then he (or someone appointed as a negotiator) would "attempt" to renegotiate parts of Theresa May's withdrawal agreement. Whatever the outcome of that attempt at renegotiation ( successful or not) would be placed before the British Electorate of a decision.

The above I find very acceptable as the withdrawal agreement negotiated by Theresa May was only ever placed in front of Parliament for a decision, and not before the entire British electorate.

At the time of that Bill being brought before parliament, it did seem to the majority in Britain I am sure that the parliamentary route was the correct way to proceed.

However, I believe, that with the threat of Britain now "crashing out" of the European Union with no deal, a General Election held to decide on that issue should be brought about as first priority.

Then, as stated, should the Labour party win that General Election the Theresa May withdrawal agreement with or without any changes secured by the Labour Government would be put to the electorate. It would then be for us all to decide whether to accept that deal and leave, or remain in the EU on the same terms as now.

The above is the official Labour Party position, and I find little to argue with in that position.

Minniemoo I'm sorry that what I assume was a 'typo' on your part has attracted such vitriol; it was perfectly clear what you meant. Others have made similar mistakes on here too but they have passed without coment.

Grandad I am not going to walk down the road, find somebody who voted to leave, invite them for a coffee to discuss opposing views. I meet people during my various activities and I'm perfectly civil, but most of them aren't "friends". Sometimes they say things which cause a sharp intake of breath, so I just ignore them.

That's why I come on here and engage with people in other discussion groups. I'm well aware that I'm in danger of living in a bubble. I'll discuss with people who have a rational point of view or factual information, but even if I'm persuaded, they're never going to be friends.

I've reached a stage in my life when I don't have to tolerate people who have beliefs and values, with which I profoundly disagree. I have a close group of friends and it just so happens that most of them voted to remain. It was never a conscious decision to choose these people as friends and I don't suppose they chose me on that basis either.

In any case, why is this even being discussed? All I did was mention that the people I know, most of whom voted to remain, don't believe the EU is perfect, thus disagreeing with something Pantglas wrote. One of them is now an MEP and even she doesn't think it's perfect!

How about discussing the original claim?

You make many assumptions, Minniemoo.

Why would there be any pm’s ? ?

jura2,in regard to your post @-09:51 today, I totally agree with you in not understanding persons who do not wish to engage with the diverse opinions expressed on a forum such a this.

In the above we seem to have a number who criticise the views and opinions of others while not ever posting their alternate views for counter criticism.

When the above is carried out I believe it demonstrates that such persons have little faith in their own ability to defend their opinions and that is the reasoning behind what they effectuate.

Hey jura2, me and you already agreeing twice in one day on this forum. We will have to cut this out or there will be many PMs flying about in regard to us. ?

It is common actually, Lessismore. Not as bad today, thankfully. We're fully integrated and have many friends of all colours! However, my children were also subjected to this. One of my worst memories was being at a beach with my children. Many years ago now. Playing in rock pools. Two small children joined them with their buckets and spades and they were all playing happily.

The older sister, ( I assumed) of the other 2 dashed over, snatched the bucket from my 3 year old son's hand and made a big deal of 'washing' it. Then grabbed the children and led them away.

Their mother silently watched.

Not that that has anything to do with this thread.

I am obviously persona non grata here so I shall bid you all good luck.

PS I still don't believe we'll leave with No Deal.

I've had many people telling me to get back to where I'm from

Awful and I suspect fairly common.

And please read what my comment again. I was referring mainly to a TV show and an article which suggested Remainers were unlikely to date Leavers. Whereas Leavers weren't as concerned.

That was it.

Then someone suggested that like minded people stick together which is fine.

But limiting.

Maizie. Unless people agree with you there is no way anyone can have a reasonable discussion.

Minniemoo- I so agree with you on this one

'If you want to be with everyone who thinks the same as you, or sits on the fence, which I'm sure many do with the more verbose, then you're missing out. '

Jeez! NO-ONE ACTUALLY SAID THAT, jura.

How can we have any sort of rational discussion if people actually invent stuff that hasn't been written in the thread to get indignant about?

How I agree with you jura2. Racism is close to my heart due to my ancestry and it can be disheartening to say the least.

Many thanks as well to GGMK3.

And yes, Urmstongran. The article is rather interesting and a lot of its content is evident on forums such as this.

Growstuff! I'm surprised that you dismiss it so easily, saying it sounds like an A Level student. I thought it was the young you were concerned about!

As I have blathered on endlessly, we can all find articles that suit our beliefs.

As for friends. Some of my best friends, (if I'm not too old to use that term) are Remainers. We don't spit and hiss at each other when we meet up for our regular outings.

So no, we don't always have to hang out with people who share our political beliefs. I would find life very dull to mix with people who all think the same as me.

This Yorkshire Post article gives a realistic assessment of the dangers we face.

The shocking government Yellowhammer document which has been leaked to The Sunday Times shows that these dangers are real. This is not "project fear". It is utterly shocking that our country has been put in such danger.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-deal-brexit-planning-assumptions-the-leaked-operation-yellowhammer-document-797qxkrcm

Minniemoo- I so agree with you on this one

'If you want to be with everyone who thinks the same as you, or sits on the fence, which I'm sure many do with the more verbose, then you're missing out. '

we have family and friends all over the world- so many cultures, religions- all ages too. Some live in the back of their vans, others are multimillionaires- and we certainly do not always agree, for sure. And that is great.

But sorry, we have our 'lines' - they are very few, but some cannot be moved and never will be. The absolute one is racism. If family or friends cross this one, not in a silly joke but in a comment they clearly mean - they are out of my/our life.