Corbyn as caretaker

From Chris Haskins in the Yorkshire Post:

'Major disruption to the sophisticated automotive supply chain puts thousands of jobs in jeopardy. Big companies, like British Steel, which sends one-quarter of its sales to the EU, face paying tariffs of more than 20 per cent on them.

Airbus, employing thousands of people in North Wales and elsewhere in Britain, are considering relocation to mainland Europe. Many large Japanese companies who chose the UK as their base for trading across the EU are thinking again. Welsh farmers who sell the majority of their lambs to the EU are facing the devastating prospect of having to pay a 40 per cent tariff on these sales.

Meanwhile the Johnson government is proposing to spend billions to mitigate the effect of all this on its hapless citizens which means it will have far less to spend on health, schools, social security and infrastructure. Further pressure will come on the pound as markets fret about the UK’s financial resilience.

Farmers will, overnight, lose their huge EU subsidies. Could the Treasury afford to replace them? The Government plans to renege on the £39bn owed to the EU, but as this will surely be contested in the courts, it would be irresponsible to spend this.

Holidaymakers will face long delays as they work their way through passport controls at airports and ports, and when they get to their destination could find prices 20 per cent higher than a year ago.

The millions of UK nationals living in the EU face an uncertain and bleak future. EU citizens living in the UK feel equally vulnerable. Without a deal, the migrant workers who keep our fruit and vegetable farms and factories viable and underpin the construction industry, will accelerate their planned departures.

There is a clear risk of friction between British and French fishermen as they seek to do business in each others’ disputed territories. The lucrative export shell fish trade to the EU from struggling coastal towns like Bridlington is bound to implode.

And then there is Ireland. Unless the minority Democratic Unionist Party changes its mind and agrees to making the Irish Sea the tariff barrier between Britain and the EU, border controls between the North and the South will have to be reintroduced, thereby undermining the Good Friday Agreement, and reviving the fearful prospect of terrorism.

The complete dissolution of the United Kingdom is a distinct consequence of a no-deal Brexit as the Scots, already extremely concerned about English dominance over their future, will resist a Brexit deal being imposed upon them by their assertive neighbour. If the Scots go their own way the Welsh will surely follow.

This, in turn, will diminish the influence of England in the international scene. It would be hard to justify her retaining a permanent seat in the UN Security council.

The 100,000 largely wealthy members of the Conservative Party, who have brought to fruition this state of affairs by appointing Boris Johnson as their leader and as Prime Minister, are rich enough to take all this in their stride.

They can afford to indulge in the nostalgia of England’s glorious, imperial past and their aversion to foreigners, especially French and Germans.

But the ones who suffer worst in an economic meltdown are the poor, many of whom have been attracted to the dangerous, racist populist appeal of the Brexiteer movement. And their chronic low expectations from society could be a source of civil unrest which could lead to fearsome consequences.

So, before millions of trusting Brexiteers are led over the precipice by their evangelical if misguided leaders, it might be worth pondering for the last time whether the sacrifice is worth it, in that original promises of opportunity and freedom have not been realised, whereas the negative consequences of Brexit now seem more dire and unavoidable.'

It is tragic that it is the very people who are the most vociferous against Remainers who want to avoid this. Remainers ,on the whole, have probably an awful lot less to lose. Gove and others have now had to admit that both industry and agriculture will be destroyed in the case of No Deal - and yet it seems that those are the people who voted massively for Leave.

And you call us selfish, and arrogant?

Thank you, Grandad, I am so glad you can see that- and right back at you. So yes, we know about LP's Conference decisions. We know that JC wants a GE rather than a second ref and we know he is against a No Deal Exit. Clear.

But then ? What then? We DO NOT KNOW what next. It is NOT clear. It seems that he wants to renegotiate- and get a Deal that will protect jobs, leave us with a Customs Union so solve the Irish border issue, and that he does not want FMOP to continue. The EU has been perfectly clear, and totally fairly, to say that kind of deal just cannot and will not, ever be on the table.

It would put the UK in a position where it can pick and choose the best of many worlds- and as such put the Members of the EU at a great disadvantage. And as such, it just cannot be accepted. This is not the EU being 'difficult' - it is not Juncker being stubborn, or Barnier being a silly Frenchman. It is simply and totally sensibly saying 'no, we cannot accept a Deal that puts our own members at a big disadvantage. It is entirely understandable and clear. But Corbyn goes on to say that he believes such a Deal (and yes, I have called it 'cake and eat with unicorns... and a cherry and whipped cream on top too') is possible because he is a much better negotiator than Mrs May.

And it is NONSENSE. And worse than that, it is a massive gamble, and wasting precious time- time wasted which will very possibly see us thrown into a No Deal.

Johnson's pupetteers are now forbidding all interviews with him- as they know he does not know the facts and will hoist himself on his own stinking petard- so they have cut his tongue, so to speak. They know the whole thing is unravelling- and that he would be the last straw if allowed to talk.

A good night's sleep and another day. Whatever is happening on here minniemoo I am really sorry to hear you are still subject to abuse for just being who you are.

I'm very ambivalent about Corbyn, Maizie. I really don't trust him nor his puppeteer, Seamus Milne. As Swinson wrote in her letter to him, I don't think the numbers add up, because some Tories such as Dominic Grieve would never vote against their own party to put Corbyn in power.

On the other hand, if it's the only way to stop the madness, so be it. Johnson's gung-ho approach can only end in disaster for the country.

Rather than explaining, the Guardian article "describes* what one sees from the viewpoint of one freelance writer. It's an opinion piece rather than a factual article. If you look him up on LinkedIn, he's obviously very young and a fairly recent Cambridge Uni graduate. I found it quite sneering and akin to the kind of thing an A level student might write.

Your PS is exactly the point I was trying to make, growstuff. But when one is trying to debate with someone who thinks that r, e, m, a, i, n, e, r, spells 'leaver' and makes sanctimonious comments about things that have not been said one does wonder if the point will be understood. And even if we are speaking the same language.

FWIW I don't think it's a Corbyn power grab; he wouldn't be able to do anything beyond stopping no deal. Any attempt to do more would have him the recipient of a VONC and he'd be out on his ear.

I agree with "growstuff". The few leave voters I know tend to have been born too late to have fought in WW2. The few I know who took part in WW2 tend to be Remainers. I too cannot understand the reasons for voting Leave but to be fair back in June 2016 the reasons for voting Remain were quite often vague. As more has come out the impending disaster of leaving has come into sharper focus.

Vote leave was certainly run better but they told so many lies and whipped up a latent mistrust of foreigners causing many to vote with their hearts and not their heads. In the cold light of today only the most ardent Brexiteers still feel they are right.

The EU has many faults but we are better off in where we can have a say in fixing many of them.

PS. Most of my friendships pre-date the referendum by many years. I really don't see that it's difficult to understand that close friends would have the same values and outlook on life. It's because we have similar values and outlook (which we discuss) that most of my friends voted to remain. I've never conscientiously rejected people because they voted to leave, although I find some of the reasons they give quite hard to stomach. We just don't have enough in common to be close in the first place.

I agree with you that it's probable that the country is moving towards a General Election. However, it is almost impossible for that to take place before 31 October, which means that the UK will already have left the EU.

IF Labour were to win an election (and I really do think it's a big IF), Corbyn wouldn't be discussing a withdrawal deal, but picking up the pieces and negotiating brand new agreements with the EU on a whole range of issues, which is something else entirely.

As it stands, it would appear that Corbyn is still in favour of leaving the EU, which is why the LibDems can't agree with him.

From my perspective, I must admit that what's happening now seems like an attempted power grab by Corbyn.

My belief is that the Conservatives and Labour still see this as a power game. Both major parties are in trouble and are attempting to save themselves. My money is on the Conservatives gaining a majority of seat sin a General Election, but without an overall majority or any kind of consensus, in which case democracy in this country will have been severely damaged. The SNP, Plaid and Greens won't prop up a Conservative government and I'd be surprised if the LibDems repeat their last mistake. From what I've seen, the LDs are averse to any kind of promise of coalition, especially with a Conservative Party led by Johnson or any of the other right wingers.

Just read the article from the link you posted Minniemoo from the long reads in the Guardian. It was very interesting!
Thank you. I’ve saved it to ‘Pocket’ (my favourite free app) to share!

Jura2, in response to your post-@22:28 yesterday (17/08/19) you again state that it is unclear as to what is Jeremy Corbyn's and the Labour Party/Movement position is in regard to Brexit.

In the above, you had asked me in a previous post to outline that position in my view, to which I responded with:-
"Jeremy Corbyn has stated in recent weeks that should the Labour Party win a General Election, then as government, the party would seek to gain better terms for the Brexit withdrawal agreement from the European Union.

In those negotiations, Britain leaving with no deal would be taken off the table, and at the conclusion of those talks whatever the outcome be (either good or bad) would be placed before the British Electorate."

Therefore jura2 in the above, I do not see how the policy could be made any clearer as this country (in all probability) moves into a General Election period. The Labour Movement Delegate Conference is only a few weeks away, and should it not be postponed due to an Election campaign taking place, I believe the above policy will again be re-adopted.

However, do not think that I am criticising you or your stance jura2 as you are always forthright with your thoughts and views towards me which I respect. That is a pleasant change from some on this forum who express criticism of others views while expressing none of their own.

You were making it up. Nothing at all was said about friends being leavers. That's why I couldn't find it. Try reading the exchange again. And reflect on your unevidenced assumption that people were choosing their friends because of their choice in the referendum.

I'll leave you three to talk amongst yourselves. Good night.

Look a bit harder, Maizie. It's on this page

Someone had mentioned that all their friends were leavers. And it was suggested that maybe that's why they are friends.

Where was that? I've looked back through the last 2 pages of this thread and can't find that exchange. Perhaps you could detail which posts it was in, minniemoo. Because at the moment I think that you're making it up.

I actually mentioned people I know because they don't think the EU is perfect, despite having voted for Remain. Yes, we talk about news and current affairs. I don't really do small talk.

Subsequent posts about how diverse their friendship group is and what they talk about is irrelevant, but provided opportunities for some snide remarks (sigh).

It's because of my colour, GGMK. By strangers. Just like comments I get in here. By strangers. Yes, I am a 'woman of colour' as I think we're being called these days.

I've had many people telling me to get back to where I'm from. I was born in Crosby.

So say what you like to me. But don't assume I like Farage. That's another mistake remainers make. Not everyone who wants to leave the EU is a fan of Farage!

I didn't. I don't actually think you were involved, GGMK3 Someone had mentioned that all their friends were leavers. And it was suggested that maybe that's why they are friends. I think there are many people who lie about how they voted due to vitriol thrown their way as well.

Then I mentioned the Jeremy Vine show where they were discussing a poll that showed that Remainers were unlikely to date a Brexiter but Brexiters weren't as likely to write the Remainers off.

I do think it's rather immature to say that your politics should dictate your friend circle. And it was never much of an issue before Brexit.

And I do think that all this constant bombardment is indeed immature. Personally. I am allowed an opinion.

I am of the belief, along with many experts, that the EU will not continue as is in the future. It's flawed.

Excellent article in the Guardian. It's rather long but worth a read. It explains much of what we see on threads like this

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/13/brexit-remain-radicalisation-fbpe-peoples-vote

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Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Then why did you suggest that Brexiteers chose their friends in one way and Leavers in another Minniemoo*? And then leap to the conclusion that your very unproven theory makes Leavers more "grow-up". That was your post not mine MM.

Oh and your attempt at insults to me, Maizie ... water off a duck's back.

I've had far worse.

If you want to be with everyone who thinks the same as you, or sits on the fence, which I'm sure many do with the more verbose, then you're missing out.

Do you honestly live in a world where everyone is constantly talking about Brexit which a handful of people in here do? It's very seldom mentioned. Except with a roll of the eyes. From all sorts of people, be they wealthy, poor, intelligent, extremely intelligent or just average.

I am surrounded by people of all colours, politics, religions and I'm pleased about it. It opens my eyes to a lot and the extreme Remainer even has his own article in The Guardian which has given me a great insight into the tiny amount of Remainers who just can't seem to accept the result.

Twenty years from now, probably less, this won't be mentioned. The EU, as is, won't exist any more. It's dying

Every voter will be different and suggesting all people who voted one way also all form their friendship groups in exactly the same way as one another while those who voted the other way not only, once again, all form their friendship groups in the same way but this way is always and for each group diametrically opposite to the other group and that this makes the group you belong to more grown up.

I have never heard such rot and trivialisation of the whole Brexit debate and I would certainly doubt the ability of anyone suggesting such a thing to show one iota of adult thinking.

And there is honestly no need to do this absurd crossing out on these posts. Keep what you said! Now that can be construed as immature!

Not stupid nor smug. But we all know many on these threads who have appeared stupid and smug with their endless attacks on those with a different opinion.

Don't we?