Gransnet forums

News & politics

How brainless to sing the red flag.....

(117 Posts)
Luckygirl Tue 10-Sep-19 13:27:14 parliament!!

Do they not realise that this is exactly what will put people off voting labour? That song alone raises the fear that a new Tory government will emerge from an election. I despair.

We need some reasoned middle ground debate, and a few politicians with half a brain - I have given up hoping for integrity too.

Fennel Wed 11-Sep-19 18:41:34

I agree with you paddyann re the Unions.
Apart from anything else they are one of the main, if not THE main support of the LP.
From my days as an active member of the LP financing was always a problem when it came to electioneering etc.
Whereas the Tories always had more than enough rich donors.

Anniebach Wed 11-Sep-19 17:12:27

paddyanne I spoke of the power of the unions in the sixties and seventies ,

Anniebach Wed 11-Sep-19 17:10:40

ilovecheese I respect your right to decide what is inappropriate for you, i was surprised anyone would think the Salvation Army singing hymns in secular places inappropriate.

paddyann Wed 11-Sep-19 17:07:54

The trade unions were invaluable in gaining workers rights etc Annie a "socialist" one would imagine you knew and admired them for that .Would you rather the Eton crew stay in power and the use of foodbanks ,even by people who work and work damn long hours is the norm?.Or that the poor the sick ,the elderly and the vulnerable carry the can for the misdeeds of the Bankers and thos e who dont pay taxes because they put their money into offshore accounts.I guess you and I grew up witha different type of "socialism ".

Lessismore Wed 11-Sep-19 17:02:58

Oh for Gods sake Annie, give it a rest.

Anniebach Wed 11-Sep-19 16:50:30

The trade unions must be thilled and working their socks off, if Corbyn wins the general election he is giving back to them
the same as they had in the sixties and seventies, when they ran the country

GillT57 Wed 11-Sep-19 16:30:19

Yes you are right there GracesGranMK3.

GracesGranMK3 Wed 11-Sep-19 16:29:16

I thought it very British Gill, but I know what you mean. It really is a better way than the guns we have seen in the parliaments of other countries.

Ilovecheese Wed 11-Sep-19 16:25:25

Sorry Grandad1948 I posted my last post without refreshing the screen so missed the last few posts.
You make a very good point, and one that I will have a think about.

Anniebach I made it very clear in my post that this was my very personal feeling about hymn singing. I would never want to impose my view on other people in regard to hymns and would therefore have no reason to want hymns not to be sung at any of the events that you mention.
I know the difference between how I feel and what everybody else should feel.

absthame Wed 11-Sep-19 16:23:30

I spent much of the 60s and 70s fighting against communists attempts to wrestle control of the LP and trade unions from more democratic groupings, unlike Corbyn amongst others, who were wooping it up courtesy of the stasi/east German and kgb\ussr inspite of advice from the LP and the TUC to avoid these events that were designed to recruit defectors and sleepers.

I often wonder why Corbyn and his ilk defied the advice on more than one occasion. hmm

GillT57 Wed 11-Sep-19 16:22:27

My heart sank when I saw the reports of the singing in the HoC because I knew that certain newspapers and certain predictable GN members would triumphantly hold this up as an example of marxism and lefties gone too far etc., etc., and I certainly wasn't disappointed.

Lessismore Wed 11-Sep-19 16:19:23

I loved the Welsh singing the hymn, in their own language. Marvelous.

Ilovecheese Wed 11-Sep-19 16:18:37

Doodledog You are absolutely right, people should educate themselves before taking offence, but they don't, perhaps because they enjoy taking offence, perhaps because they can't be bothered, perhaps because they really don't want to think any differently.

GracesGranMK3 Wed 11-Sep-19 16:15:21

"Parliament is half full of marxist so it does not surprise me but still saddens."

Are people really expecting to be taken seriously when they say such things?

Grandad1943 Wed 11-Sep-19 16:13:33

Ilovecheese, in regard to your post @14:23 today, the Labour party avoiding "bad press" would seem to many a sensible thing to do, and in that singing the Labour Movements anthem in public situations should be avoided. Tony Blair in his years as leader of the party ensured that his administration (in the main) kept the mass media on side by not bringing forward radical policies or actions.

However, to achieve the above Blair constrained input into the party from district and constituency parties and affiliate members along with their organisations. That restricted debate and policy creation in the party to a close group surrounding Blair and Brown. Many in the Labour movement today believe that structure gave Britain the beginnings of Zero Hours contacts, the Gig Economy, the British end of the Banking Crisis and the Iraq War.

The Election of Jeremy Corbyn once again opened up the Parliamentary Labour Party to input from all connected to the Labour movement, it's affiliate organisations and their membership. The days of Blair as leader are decried by large numbers in the party and especially in the trade union affiliate membership. These days those members pledge that such organization and policies will never be embodied into the Labour moment again.

Therefore, today we have i believe a Labour party and broader movement that has brought forward an organisational structure and policies that it firmly believes in and in that assumes an attitude that the Electorate will accept those structures and policies or not, but either way, and within that nothing will change.

In short, the party and broader movement exude an attitude of, we have our structure, we have our policies and along with that, if singing the Red Flag as our anthem draws criticism from the mass media and sectors of the public, too bad. We are what they are for better or for worse, and so shall remain.

The above is a stance which i feel they should long continue into the future.

Anniebach Wed 11-Sep-19 15:41:51

Inappropriate to sing hymns in a secular place ? No carol singers, the Salvation Army behave inappropriately? No singing Cwm Rhondda at Rugby matches? 😮

Doodledog Wed 11-Sep-19 15:13:08

The question is whether the LP (or any mainstream party) should adapt their traditions because people are so easily led by the media.

Yes, the BBC didn't show the other singing, and I do understand the point that maybe the LP should have thought of that; but if they go down that road, where does it end?

Nobody has come back with a reason why the song is seen as revolutionary or communist after I posted the lyrics. It isn't.

So, why shouldn't it be sung? Isn't it up to the public to educate themselves before taking offence, rather than up to others to constantly self-censor in case of erroneous accusations?

Labaik Wed 11-Sep-19 14:56:59

It was at one in the morning; but I understand that the BBC in their usual impartial way showed that and only that in the news later that the same way that they edited out Johnsons shenanigans in Ireland the other day, too.

SirChenjin Wed 11-Sep-19 14:48:45

I agree Ilove - the DM etc readers seem quite happy to believe what they read in that rag without questioning it, and then they parrot it as truth.

Ilovecheese Wed 11-Sep-19 14:23:36

I am another one who did not know that any other parties were singing songs. I know what Luckygirl means about how it is viewed by the public. Labour members should be continuously on their guard to avoid any behaviour that will be given a negative slant by the right wing press. However, it was about 1 o clock in the morning.

SirChenjin do that many people know about the Labour Party though? Many people seem willing enough to believe what the Daily mail etc. print about the party.

On a very personal level, I feel it is slightly inapropriate to sing a Christian Hymn in a secular space, but I realise that is just my own thought, I am not about to accuse the hymn singers of being wrong.

SirChenjin Wed 11-Sep-19 13:41:07

Only by certain sections of the public, surely. I would imagine that anyone who knows anything about the Labour party would know it's not a marxist or communist song - and those who don't know can always look up Wikipedia.

Luckygirl Wed 11-Sep-19 13:37:50

The issue is not whether people know the difference; it is how this particular song is viewed by the public - what its associations are.

paddyann Wed 11-Sep-19 13:17:14

I thought it was only Americans who dont understand the diference between Marxism and socialism...sadly it seems not

SirChenjin Wed 11-Sep-19 13:09:06

half full of marxist

Got a link to that statistic new?

Do Boris etc forget they're being televised too, or do they just not care?

newnanny Wed 11-Sep-19 13:04:22

Parliament is half full of marxist so it does not surprise me but still saddens. Did McDonnell and Corbyn start the singing? Disgraceful behaviour. They must sometimes forget their behaviour is being televised to the public.