Domestic violence

Years ago as a councillor and county councillor in a barrack town I regularly was involved with women an children being sexually, physically and emotionally abused by men, many of whom had been drinking and many not. The police, military authorities and even social services would never act as these were "family issues” and direct observations rarely existed. My home was often used as a refuge for such victims until I with the help of friends could find some safe haven for the victims.

Thank God time has moved on somewhat, but it has a lot further to move until violence, physical and emotional, is not a part of millions of families lives.

But what is of greater importance, I believe, is that as a society we must be more positive in the steps that we are willing to take in protecting children from the levels of real abuse that they are subjected to, rather than chasing silly ideas about criminalising parents using light smacks to correct errant or risky behaviors of children.

Now it's time for me to duck

Nonnie I never said it was a competition. Perhaps you see it as such as you feel it necessary to make it clear that you have been on GN for a long time. The only relevance of that must be that you somehow think this gives your posts extra weight.

I'm not the only one who has queried the emphasis on male abuse when the thread began with female abuse. I have made it clear that I am addressing a particular point, not trying to rubbish all opinions on male abuse. As it happens I am a little qualified in this area and particularly in social science research so for me, to look beyond the starting point of the personal anecdote is vital.

And yes, threads expand, that's why I mentioned gay and transgender relationships where gender roles are taken and abuse happens. Don't you think that's enough now? I have nothing more to say. Are you big enough to say peace to all and walk away? I am.

trisher Mon 07-Oct-19 14:12:45 you put it very well.

notentirelyallhere Mon 07-Oct-19 14:22:31 I disagree, it is not a competition. I also think there are a lot less gay and transgender people which is perhaps why they are not already mentioned. However, you appear to think that mentioning men was wrong and then you bring another group into the discussion. Those of us who have been on GN for a long time understand that threads diverge or expand, no one should decide what it appropriate to post if it in not against the guidelines.

"However, I stand by my point that to follow the incredible video shared in the original post with what seemed like a mean minded and whinny little 'men get abused too' post really upset me, it felt so undermining." I'm sorry you see it like that, I doubt many others would.

"I get irritated by the large number of people who generalise out from personal anecdote to a wider issue". I don't understand that, surely we are all affected by our personal experience as well as what we read and hear? Isn't that what this thread is doing? I doubt most people on here are responding as professionals with appropriate experience although I know at least one is.

I don't have personal experience but I will never forget the conversation I had with a policeman whose brother had been abused by his wife with the result that he committed suicide. That isn't something one forgets. I am not aware that I know any woman who has been abused by their partner but that doesn't stop me caring about it.

Yes Trisher I accept your points but we do differ on how we read that post about men being abused, it's a different point of view on the same subject and that's life.

notentirelyallthere it isn't "undermining" to acknowledge men get abused as well any more than it is undermining to discuss physical violence when the MP was talking about mental abuse and coercive control. It is simply acknowledging that abuse comes in many forms and in many relationships and anyone speaking about it or seeking help is to be applauded, but that there is still a hidden and secretive element it is difficult to deal with.

First chance I've had to return to this discussion. Trisher I think you're talking about principles and I was responding from the heart to the most amazing, brave speech by a woman that I just can't imagine making myself. I bow down in honour at her bravery and honesty.

Of course I agree with all those posters who want to say that men get abused too. However, I stand by my point that to follow the incredible video shared in the original post with what seemed like a mean minded and whinny little 'men get abused too' post really upset me, it felt so undermining.

Of course, it's an emotional subject and some women are very protective of men in general and will feel personally affected if they have known men who have suffered abuse. I get irritated by the large number of people who generalise out from personal anecdote to a wider issue, especially when that issue is so complicated and multi-faceted. No one has mentioned gay relationships and I'm sure this comes into transgender relationships too. The problem is violence itself and why some people bully others, bullying seems endemic in the UK and possibly the US too. We could speculate endlessly about the cause.

There's a thread running on ACEs (Adverse Childhood Experiences) and astonishingly, there are lots of people on that thread saying they had all these experiences and they're fine and it's 'just' about being resilient. So short sighted and I'm alright Jack. I did wonder Sussexborn about your sentence Harsh and judgmental people come from a point of ignorance flinging out something that was probably meant to be supportive of the OP but actually, who are you firing at in a passive aggressive way, name names if you want to get at someone, at least it's honest.

That's enough for now, that's my answer Trisher.

trisher Sun 06-Oct-19 17:37:51 yes, I think the problem is that it is 'hidden'. Men are far less likely to complain than women so how can we possibly have statistics? They can only be reported cases not the hidden ones. We need people to accept that abuse can be on both sides and not blame men or blame women, it isn't a competition!

I know of a case which involved social workers and I heard the SW get really cross with the man because he didn't report abuse from the woman. He refused because he didn't want her taken away from the children, yes, it was that bad. Not all men are monsters.

Perhaps you could say if you would accept or make the same sort of comment about the abuse of women notentirelyallthere or is that different?
It is no use a woman relating her own painful experiences if people are then going to say that these experiences are purely female. Women may be the main victims but men can be victims too and to say that it is wrong to mention this devalues her statement just as much as disbelieving her. A victim of abuse is a victim of abuse regardless of gender.

I was being ironic because a worthwhile post about a brave speech by a female MP was being undermined by a catty little post about 'men being abused too'.

I'm glad you know so much about the subject Trisher perhaps I do too so don't lecture me about how I've posted. I'm perfectly entitled to use irony if I feel it's appropriate.

notentirelyallthere perhaps you should refrain from being 'ironic' about a subject which for many is a painful and difficult one. I wonder how people would feel if the same sort of comment was made about women victims of domestic abuse.
The gender pay gap actually has little meaning as far as abuse of men is concerned. There are women who earn high salaries, there may be less than men, but they exist. Some of those women marry men who earn less than them. Some of those women then use their earning power to belittle and abuse their partner. Some of those women also use their children to control their partner.
Violence is certainly used by men against women. But we are not today just looking at physical violence but at emotional and mental manipulation and women are just as able as men in this respect. Just as there are women who die through marital abuse there are men who commit suicide and though it may not be referred to (families find it hard to accept) marital abuse may be the cause of this.

I could have missed much on this topic.
My marital abuse was psychological at first, then became physical. I finally fought back physically. But it was a tragic end.
I only stayed with him because he really loved our children. He died Jan. last year aged 81 and they all went to his funeral.
Our stories are all different.

My post was ironic Trisher , always a mistake on GN. It certainly is the case that there is some domestic violence perpetrated by women against men. Statistics are hard to pin down either way round, supposedly for every man who is abused, three women will be the equivalent figure. Of course some men who are abusers will claim they are battered as a defence, eg OJ Simpson. Also women are more likely to use violence against men in self defense than the other way round. Its called Intimate Partner Violence (IPV) these days, there's lots of research and there ARE refuges for men hence my irony, I suppose many people don't realise.

As for all these powerful, high earning women, I'm afraid the gender pay gap gives the lie to that one www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/genderpaygapintheuk/2018

Anecdotes vs facts usually reveal what people want to believe for their own reasons.

My husband has an aquaintance who he sees weekly ,this man is in is early 70's and his wife doesn't let him out on his own.She waits outside the meeting where my husband sees him and if he doesn't "hurry up" is often seen to punch him or clip him round the ear.Its very uncomfortable to watch .
None of the other members of the meetings will speak to him about it and they know its been happening of rthe 15-20 years they've known him.My problem is if shes happy to slap him in front of friends what does she do to him when he;s on his own and does somethine she doesn't like.They have been married a very long time ,no children and she although 70 still does fairly important work locally .He's a lovely man and its sad to see him humiliated by her.What would any of you do ...he seems to accept her behaviour .

Nonnie Thanks for your posts about men being abused. I think there is a huge hidden problem. To those who are posting that men should fund raise for a refuge the problem is that they are in a similar situation as women once were. It is a deep dark secret.
Women are now sometimes in a much more powerful situation. They sometimes have careers and may earn more than their partner. They sometimes use that earning potential to weild power. They may also use their children to manipulate a partner. It isn't a simple situation.

Even her mother, gave evidence on what an impossibly difficult woman her daughter was and how wonderful she thought he (her daughter's husband) had been in putting up with her.

Wow, a story to be had there! Nice little threesome? MIL yearning after SIL? You only have to visit the estrangement threads to see all manner of abusive families. You can bet the mother-daughter relationship wasn't great, I wonder if there were GC over whom access was going to be fought. Not much of a mother to say that or allow herself to be quoted in public saying so.

I too have met many abusers both in the course of my work (I was a Women's Aid worker for 18.5 years) and socially. Nearly all of these abusive men were charming and 'butter wouldn't melt' in their professional capacity ( eg Minster, Senior Councillor, Solicitor, Police Officer), or in a social setting, unless you had heard the 'behind closed doors' story, you would not have guessed immediately until long experience working in this field developed an abuser detecting antenna.

Latterly we worked very closely with the local Police, training officers about domestic abuse and having regular liaison meetings with their Family Unit, etc. During these meetings we discussed the position of men who had suffered Domestic Abuse and the Police showed us their statistics which showed that only 2% of complaints of Domestic VIOLENCE where the victim was male, involved a female partner or spouse. The main protagonists were Father/Son followed by brothers, gay partners or boy friends. There was another around 2% where the alleged abuser was a female relative. e'g' Mother, Aunt, someone who was not a spouse or partner.

For female victims of abuse (5% of alleged perpetrators were current or ex spouses, partners or boyfriends.

Nonnie i have sent you PM to explain how I have met so many. I will say it was purely through work, not socially !

Loislovesstewie Sun 06-Oct-19 09:45:15 Are you a social worker or police officer? You seem to have met an awful lot of abusers.

I think the MP in the OP was talking about threats and control which are very different to physical abuse. Many women physically abuse men but men are usually big enough to prevent too much harm and are certainly much less likely to complain about it. There are also women who allege abuse when there is no evidence. Of course if any person abuses anyone else they should be stopped.

In the case of coercion I suspect women have more weapons than men because they can threaten to take the children away from the father. I know on estrangement threads there have been several Dils who have cut off their partner's family, a lot more than the other way round. That can be coercion - 'me or your family'. I can think of several ways I might be able to coerce DH if I were inclined but fortunately I have no need to 'win' over him.

It is hard when we read posts on Mumsnet to know how much of the post is true because the one cited said the court gave access which makes me wonder why if there was evidence of abuse.

I have found that a lot of men who are abusive are outwardly very charming. many appear to be just the sort of man that a parent would want their daughter to be with. Sadly they are also controlling and manipulative behind closed doors. As long as everything is their way things are fine, they make the woman think that she is always in the wrong. when physical violence begins that too is her fault because ' you made me angry'.
I have met men who have threatened other family members or have told the woman that if she leaves he will start on her elderly parents . I have met men who say they will kill the much loved family pet if she leaves the pet behind . So women stay to protect others or the family pet. More than one woman didn't leave until the dog died or her parents died.
We take on the responsibility for other people's lives and happiness often to our own detriment . That is partly due to expectations from others and really that should stop.

I hope attitudes to DV have changed in recent years .I have found police officers much more likely to accept that it isn't 'just a domestic' social workers, housing officers much more on board with the issues. Sadly I think some individuals don't understand how a relationship progresses from verbal bullying, coercive control through to physical violence.

And I agree that women can also be perpetrators , I've met them. And even more rare , they can both be as bad as the other. trying to work out who was the victim being almost imposible.

Acknowledging that women, as well as men can behave badly, can be abusive in many ways, in no way diminishes the fact that two women a week are murdered by ex/current partners.

Men are more likely to be raped by other men, than be accused falsely of rape.

Men and women often behave differently when they're angry or just plain nasty and abusive. Why single out childhood abuse experiences as an explanation for the behaviour of some abusive men? Women also experience abuse in childhood. Abuse by men or by women isn't ever acceptable. Our focus should be on ensuring as well as any society can, that children are well cared for so are less likely to become abusive adults.

The issue of why more men are violent and murderous is one we don't fully understand but denying it doesn't make it less so.
To acknowledge this doesn't make one a 'man hater' and you don't need to be a feminist, as one poster suggested, to face reality.

There is a trial going on at the moment where a man murdered his wife after 20 plus years of abuse and bad treatment. Even her mother, gave evidence on what an impossibly difficult woman her daughter was and how wonderful she thought he (her daughter's husband) had been in putting up with her.

On Mumsnet, I have read of women getting out of an abusive relationship only for courts to award child access rights to the abusive partner.
This can allow continued abuse if the ex is not a good parent and/or tries to influence the child against the mother.

Those of us not involved may imagine that there is recourse against this sort of thing, but there seems to be very little that can be done.

I also agree that it does involve men being abused by women and also other men. This is a complex subject and should never be trivialised by people who have never been through it. I have and never want anyone else to suffer as I did. Life is too short and why should someone make your life HELL!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with you Nonnie, which is what I meant by my first post meaning that domestic abuse was a complex issue.
Yes it does also involve men being abused too by the ever constant-nagging women, which being a non-feminist, I can see and also understand both sides and not just a " male only " abuser. Cases in which the bullied becomes the bully.
Some women are worse manipulators than men.

I also agree that statistically men are the instigators of most domestic abuse cases and many would have been physically/mentally/sexually or psychologically abused in their earlier lives which sparks off their behaviour in certain circumstances.

Women will more often than not receive help in an abusive situation but a man is less likely to in this so-called society of equality and as Nonnie pointed out they find their only way of escape is suicide which in this day and age is totally unacceptable when the support isn't there for them.

notentirelyallhere - in my town a group of men set up a group to support abusive men. The lead was a man who had a series of convictions for abusing his female partners.

I'm with you in believing that if men believe there is a need for refuges for men, let them fund raise and support this as we did in the 70's and 80's. It was local women here to set up our first women's refuge, some time after that we persuaded the l.a. to contribute an amount to the running costs. Of course with austerity, l.a.'s can barely meed their statutory responsibilities. As a result of this and the pressure on charities, many women's refuges have closed.
It's often believed that women get all kinds of support in leaving. LA's around our city set up Freedom Project groups, to help women in abusive relationships to consider their situations. They'd be referred by social workers who had been involved by schools, health visitors, drug/alcohol teams and so on as a result of concern about the welfare of children

I'm not suggesting some women aren't abusive. It's important though to remember that 2 women a week are murdered by partners/ex partners.