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A broken country?
(236 Posts)Looking at all the political threads, with their content so often one of complete and irreconcilable difference, it has occurred to me that we live in a very different country to the one we were brought up in.
Post war and for the subsequent decades, we lived in a society which largely accepted common goals such as attitude to extreme politics, the welfare state and its attitude to the unemployed and those physically or mentally disabled, or the attitude to people displaced by war or famine, etc.
We all had the same common goals. Where we differed was how we achieved these goals, which manifested in the political parties. Tories a largely centre right party, whose philosophical outlook was one of paternalism known as “one nation Toryism” and Labour, a centre left party whose philosophical outlook had been built and later expanded, on the recognition that the urban working class needed political representation, in order to represent its interests.
Both main parties largely accepted common goals, like those listed above, the difference was as I said how they could be achieved.
But now I would argue this system is rapidly breaking down, because we can no longer agree on what our common goals are.
Everything is in flux and under question.
This is resulting in huge divides, hate, and a parliament that reflects society at large which is so divided it can’t agree on the big issue of the day let alone carry on as a Parliament should with running the country. It seems paralysed.
I feel unsettled and dismayed at what is happening.
I can’t see a good outcome.
The right-wing tabloids which are owned by billionaire tax dodgers have so much to answer for. They have a poisonous influence on their readers.
Just listen to this 21 year old factory worker tell how he cannot have a reasoned debate with his co-workers because they get their opinions formed, and reinforced daily by the lies and propaganda in The Sun, Daily Mail, etc.
www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/henry-factory-worker-on-lbc-the-sun-and-daily-mail-1-6311742
“A compassionate and tolerant Great Britain. And inclusive and creative Great Britain. An outward looking, respectful and dignified Great Britain. A progressive and fair Great Britain.”
Utopia, if the U.K. was running a large budget surplus we could make strides in that direction, who’s is going to lend us money on compassionate grounds to achieve it.
Lemon ''It depends entirely on the country and ethos of where they are from doesn’t it?'' - well yes, exactly. So please tell us which EU country has 'very different goals in mind'' - and which goals they have that contradict our own?
You say I am furious - but I'd say I am passionately sorry to see the country I fell in love with, in pre EU days- and where I have lived all my adult life- because of this.
And yes, perhaps I do want to go back- to that country I fell in love with
A compassionate and tolerant Great Britain. And inclusive and creative Great Britain. An outward looking, respectful and dignified Great Britain. A progressive and fair Great Britain.
It is indeed time to reclaim decent Great British values. Some things should stay the same. This thread is about a 'broken' Britain - and yes, I do think it started with Mrs Thatcher - but Brexit is breaking it in a way even she could not have anticipated. Pretending it is not related is just nonsense.
(adapted from a Tweet I saw today).
You are determined jura2 to view the OP’s question as entirely Brexit related when it isn’t, or may be, but only in part.
I realise that you are furious that the UK voted to leave the EU but there are many threads already discussing this subject.
I won’t be replying to any more questions from you on this.
I make no value judgement on this - but you are aware that as our Allies in the EU will no longer protect our borders rigorously and at time, very harsly, 24/7 - and because when desperate for Deals, far away countries will demand large numbers of Visas in exchange for any deal/s - and at the same time, our well established EU workers in the UK leave - the balance will change vastly. No? Is that what you wish?
Hmm - I think that, looking globally, we are increasingly looking at a ‘post-democracy’ and ‘post-consumerist’ world. Neither democracy or consumerism are sustainable with our growing global population, growing demands on and competition for diminishing planetary resources and the damage we have so unthinkingly done to our environment. I have no idea what ‘new order’ will emerge but emerge it will by one means or another ...
Nothing stays the same in life.
It depends entirely on the country and ethos of where they are from doesn’t it?
lemon 'with immigrants from very different countries from ours, with maybe different goals in mind.' - do you think immigrants from the EU have 'different goals in mind' - what are those?
We have seen and continue to see many changes. That has always been the case but now those chabges are ncoming thick abd fast. Most noticeable must be the politicians. They are unable to see forward and just want to stop any progress. In all that it is impossible for us to see what should be done although many of us feel we know.
Perhaps we are undergoing the most volatile change in any peacetime. One thing is sure: we all want this to end asap.
i think it was Bessie Braddock, it was Lady Astor who said
‘If you were my husband I would poison your tea’ and Churchill’s reply ‘if you were my wife I would drink it ‘
You have the unfortunate knack jura2 of always coming back with a ‘personal’ reply....even when the comment is not aimed at yourself ( or Remainers).
My reply was to the OP about the subject of ‘a broken country’.
The UK has immigrants from many backgrounds both EU and non EU.
I believe the UK may have changed in many ways but still has a bright future.
Society itself has changed in all (or just about all) countries due to technology, things will never be the same, but that’s good ( and normal) in my view.
As for those who think politics was once nice and cosy how about Churchill's comment to a woman MP (Bessie Bradock or Lady Astor depending on who tells it) who accused him of being disgustingly drunk.
"My dear you are ugly and disgustingly ugly. But in the morning I will be sober and you will still be disgustingly ugly."
Would he get away with that now?
I agree with Gaunt47
Some peoples will never assimilate and that includes some Anglo Saxons.
I myself have little in common with some sectors of society and likewise they with me.
I have worked alongside but not socialised with various groups as our pastimes, home lives and values often differ.
Integration has been (and always will be) a thorny issue.
Like mostly gravitates to like when there is common ground.
As for 20m more since WW2, yes, I believe those numbers but the UK has not expanded in size. We cannot accomodate every TD or H who decides to come here.
Priti Patel has my vote on the points system.
I'm leaving the politics to those paid to sort the mess out and I'll take my pick of the resultant pieces and make sure my life doesn't suffer more than necessary. My AC and GC will probably do likewise, although their jobs are not in danger.
Most of us are, like it or not, looking out for ourselves amid the mayhem.
The lack of understanding is just staggering.
You can trace it back to Margaret Thatcher's statement "There is no such thing as society." Even she realised how damaging the statement was and tried to backtrack but the damage was done. No one since has dared to speak up and say that it isn't enough to take care of yourself and others matter. But I think things are changing. There are young people who care about others, and the planet, and older socialists who are saying, "we stand together."
I don't know a single Remainer 'who wanted to go back to Ye Goode Olde Days' - au contraire, lemon, au contraire. And we were/are looking forward to a bright and much future future, cooperating with our European allies. You really don't get this, do you.
Again- immigration you say- from far away and with goals very different to ours - hmmm. Are you talking about EU migrants here, are you sure? You do realise that without our EU, and particularly French, allies - the access to UK borders will be opened for all. They have been working so hard, 24/7 - keeping people away- armed to the teeth, SAS type and with practically no limits to their powers - to keep our borders free. When out with No Deal - this will stop overnight- or rather ... t'other way round.
Workers worked 5 and a half days a week. Women were 2nd class citizens with unequal pay for the same job, often not able to join pension schemes or get promotion. Men expecting their meal on the table at a certain time each night. Racism (No Jews, no Blacks, no dogs, no Irish). Many Catholics and some Protestants with no vote in NI unless they were property owners.
It was, and still is about power. Imo that wasn't evidence of common goals. It was about the rich and powerful protecting what they'd got - much the same as 2019.
.SNP Mp's have never voted on English matters
the rUK thinks we're scrounging off THEM when in fact...and it is FACT .Its the other way about.England will be bankrupt without Scotlands financial input.Saor Alba !
paddyann your first stated fact has been proved wrong, it happened in 2016.
Any chance your second stated fact could also be from the same source?
I have noticed that when challenged you don't seem to come back with any reasoned post. And why oh why do you never mention Wales. Will they be bankrupt too? And will you take pleasure in that as much as England's plight?
Fiachna 300 YEARS .that word seems to have disappeared above
Fiachna it has taken 300 from the union we didn't want ..there were riots on the streets when it was announced...for us to stand up and be counted and try to get OUR country into OUR hands .I am very proud of the tens of thousands who work their socks off every week ,working towards Independence.
We woke up and realised exactly WHAT the "union" is doing to us.We are one of the richest countries in the world yet we have immense poverty ,foodbanks on the rise and the rUK thinks we're scrounging off THEM when in fact...and it is FACT .Its the other way about.England will be bankrupt without Scotlands financial input.Saor Alba !
What alarms me most is the viciousness of modern political debate, the demonisation of anyone whose views you may disagree with, and the universal unwillingness to consider a different point of view. I can’t see how we can navigate a way through this.
I wonder if there has been a common goal. Not a unilateral one because they never are but hasn't the goal most have backed, to some degree or other, been the Neo-Liberal idea of getting and keeping inflation down.
This seems to have led only to stagnation in wages, a cultural divide and an increase in inequality.
Before Thatcher, our governments (and their voters) generally were a little either side a social-democratic message. Now we have two main parties which each probably only attract 20% of the country because their message is so far from any consensus.
Could we, away from the extremes, have a common goal in investment for growth. Perhaps shades of the USA New Deal in the 1930s. We have areas in which we already lead: technology, process mechanisation and power, particularly green power. This would also have a positive effect on our productivity which is currently going backwards.
Most of this prompted my own views on Social Democracy and by an interview with John Mills about his new pamphlet Left Behind: Why voters deserted social democracy - and how to win them back
Polnan, I also saw that programme, and was so irate that they would consider selling them! How anti socialist!
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