Am I the only one

That 'nice Mr Cameron's booklet' was dismissed as Project Fear and Leavers claimed they didn't believe any of it.

So how can any Leaver now cite it as being what they voted for?

april it didn't tell us everything. Can you answer my question please?

I think we got told very clearly what we were "losing" nonnie. That nice Mr. cameron sent us all a booklet ( paid for by taxpayers like you(?) and me) so that we would know exactly what we were voting for.

aprilrose Sun 20-Oct-19 13:45:41 You really cannot blame all the UK's ills on the EU! Please explain how it was the EU's fault your husband lost his job and developed paranoia? I worked for an international company which closed down a plant in the UK because it was easier under British law to close one down than under German or French law. Nothing to do with the EU.

It is the UK's responsibility to find jobs for its graduates, no one else's.

aprilrose Sun 20-Oct-19 13:06:23 I am sorry but I totally disagree with your second paragraph and do not think that, whatever previous experience you have, you should assume that is what we all do. We don't. I do wonder if it is what you would do and that is why you think we do?

I was the one who asked the question and no leaver has ever asked me for 3 reasons why we would be better off in. However here are 3 random ones in no particular order:

1 They buying power of a large group is much higher than the buying power of one small nation.

1 The money markets have devalued the £ by 20% since the vote in 2016. They make such decisions based upon information about how the country is likely to be affected. Therefore things are more expensive than they would otherwise be already. The markets would leap up if we said we were going to revoke A50

2 Germany has already said that it will treat us as a rival in economic terms which means we lose all the benefits of being in the EU. No country is going to put us before their own interest when it comes to signing trade deals which take years to agree. In the meantime we have to trade on WTO rules.

I think that really comes to more than three so I have given you good value. Over to you

Please tell us "I know what the EU has cost me and my family" what you know.

Incidentally I don't agree that the Remain campaign 'got it wrong' in the way you said. Their mistake was in failing to tell us what we would lose by leaving and MSM not telling us what the lies were.

Most of the time since 2008 we've had Tories in power so how will staying in help if they continue to be in power?

I lost my first three jobs under a Labour government .

^Please don't take this the wrong way, but it can't all be because of the eu surely.
Maybe some of your young people might have benefited from freedom of movement^

Freedom of movement to do what? The unemployment rates in most EU countries is much higher than here. They have no jobs in many EU countries, thats why their youth come here. Its a one way street. I know this because the children themselves have said so.

Some have moved areas but the job situation for most of them is no better in the SE and around London than where I am. It doesnt matter if it is all the EU or not.

In my own case it is and has been very much the result of being in the EU. I have lost three jobs as a result of the main local employers moving out over the years. I was luckier than my husband, I got other work. But I am a woman.
I hesitate to say it but being a woman makes a difference in getting work now.

Thats all I base my views on. Nothing else is important at the end of the day. Its all airy fairy if it isn't in your own experience.

Oh dear Varian, my husband never has a logical argument these days. he just hurls insults. Ive got used to it. Put him on the spot and ask him what it is he is actually defending - what it is that means we will be worse off out of the EU or ask him why we should remain in the EU and frankly he doesnt know. He lives his life cowering in a corner worrying about eveything.

His argument to me this morning was that we would be destitute and in the workhouse. Seriously. I pointed out we didnt have workhouses these days and I had a job , one not dependent on the EU and we would be OK. Then he told me I was thick and stupid . So he has no dinner.

He has calmed down now and he is OK again. So we do not mention the EU and remaining .

I take your point and thank you for your honesty.
I can honestly say that what you are going through is beyond my own experience but explains why you feel as you do.
Factories have closed here and former employees who were well -paid and self-sufficient have been known to need food banks but this is not because of the eu. New technology and industry changes caused redundancies and unemployment. Many now have new jobs and good support is on offer but if that's not the case in your area I am sorry.
Don't know where you live but the job situation sounds pretty dire overall.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but it can't all be because of the eu surely.
Maybe some of your young people might have benefited from freedom of movement.
I can't agree that the government stopped listening and providing support because of eu regulations.
Most of the time since 2008 we've had Tories in power so how will staying in help if they continue to be in power?
We all risk being far worse off.

Oh dear aprilrose! Perhaps it would be better to listen to your husband's logical arguments rather than put you fingers in your ears until he accuses you of not listening, so not understanding.

comment | Report | Private message aprilrose Sun 20-Oct-19 09:25:16
Aprilrose you ask where did I comment I had marriage problems ?
Well, here, basically

I am sick of being called names by those who do not agree. This morning my husband called me " thick", " don't have a brain", "stupid" " don't understand" and all in on sentence. He is a remain minded person. Its not the first time but I don't think I will forgive him now. Since I am the main earner in our household. I find that an insult of the ultimate kind

I think that sounds pretty abusive Aprilrose
In our 47 years of marriage. I never experienced that sort of language. And saying you will not forgive him sounds a lot like “marriage problems” to me.
I think concern was being expressed for you - don’t shoot the messenger!

The problem with this group is that if you say too much you get accused of things that are not true. I have seen it...... so one says there are too many people fighting for too few jobs and diversity gives those jobs to others - someone interprets that as some kind of anti immigration/ racist comment. It isn't. Its just a statement of how things are.

If people would talk and listen to others without having to throw the r words and the i words and the other isms around, we might all get a lot further.

mcem, when my husband lost his job, the only one he had ever had, he was completely lost, fell into a deep depression characterised by paranoia. he blames himself for not being good enough rather than acknowledging what actually happened in his firm, which was , basically they packed up and moved to another country where they got an EU grant for setting up. That was back in 2008 before the bust of RBS and austerity.

His condition makes him is easily frightened by the remain fear campaigns. Anything he says to me is a product of that.
I understand it. However, that move by his firm, instigated by the EU has cost us dearly in terms of mental health and life. I do my best but there is no support service for my husband. I have to work. We have a child. he takes care of her. As long as nothing comes along to worry him he is OK. But this remainer lark has really caused a lot of his paranoia to flare again - and why shouldnt it? That is precisely what remain minded supporters are trying to create.

I fear for my childs future. When I look at my own life over the last 45 years, it has not been a good one generally. My husband worked hard and then got thrown onto a scrap heap along with many others in my area. I look forward to a life in the EU and I see no change from what I have had.

I look at my colleagues at work and see that their children seem to be in perpetual debt. perpetual students some of them because their degrees have not yeilded work opportunities and now many parents are paying for them to do Masters and Ph.D's. All as an alternative to the dole queue. Some have moved to other parts of the country but fared little better than those who stayed local.

If what was is to be what continues ( ie EU membership) then I want to see change. The future is not bright in the EU.

Thank you aprilrose for that post.
I honestly cannot think of a single European regulation that has inconvenienced or disadvantaged my own family but that's my situation, not yours and you must have specific examples (which you may or may not wish to share).
I cannot imagine how your family might have been damaged while your husband denies that's so.
Can you see why it's difficult to understand your point of view?
I agree that, to some extent we have to see the whole fiasco in the context of our own families, but surely we also have to see beyond that too.
I have no family in N I but can sympathise with those who are dreading the possibility of trouble ahead - one reason I voted to remain.
Sorry, but I couldn't change my mind/ vote on the basis of what you've said.

aprilrose Sun 20-Oct-19 11:29:26 the word was 'some'. Why do you take that so personally? It really is not good for your cause to take that as an insult

..... ( never start a sentence with because ..... because "Some" is a word that people in groups like this use in order to make their comments without getting into hot water when someone comes back and says " not me". I have seen it often. They really mean in their opinion "all" but its the way things are supposed to be said . Now of course they will come back and say that I am wrong. But I have my opinion and its has been my experience. The words "some", "many" "most" " a significant proportion" , etc. is over used, especially in debates like this.

In the same way as some ( one?) has asked for three reasons my family might benefit from leaving the EU. I have asked for three reasons MY family would benefit from staying. I received no answers either.

I have seen reasons for staying but none have ever applied to my family.

In the past, before the EU, those of us losing out would have had a voice heard by the government ( our government) and a little process called compromise would have taken place.

The goverment would have heard the discontent and moved to make sure enough people were given a crumb or two of cake in some way to ensure that the direction they wished to take would be the one accepted ( if not condoned) by all. There would have been a bit of give and take.

Since the EU there has been no such give and take, mainly because there are too many other factions and the EU rules have denied governments the ability to act with sufficient autonomy. Some -one of those words again- countries ignore those EU rules but Britain does not. if we ignored the rules as others have done, the result of the referendum may well have gone in remains favour. But there was a misjudgment of how many were not benefiting. Polls do not show you that. Back in 2016, the government of the day , which is more or less exactly the same one as today, took a gamble that more people had benefited from being in the EU and so would vote remain than those who had not and would vote leave.

They got it wrong. They got it wrong because they had failed to realise how successive directives and rules implemented in this country had left a majority at a disadvantage. That is why they were angry. I will never forget the media pictures of Camerons face. The anger was palpable. But they got it wrong and have not changed anything to change the minds of leave voters. The problem is that the media, the government and the remain minded want to think otherwise and keep trying to make it look as though leave voters have not understood.

Well, I for one, have understood alright. I know what the EU has cost me and my family - and my husband although he is afraid to admit it, hence he calls me thick or stupid when I point it out to him. He is simply afraid. He wants me to agree because he cannot admit the facts in our own family case. he knows what happened . he just needs reminding every now and then. The media whip him up and he gets frightened. I think that happens in a lot of cases with remain minded. But that is just my opinion.

I might add, dislike of the EU is not just a British thing. There are many other countries having the same issues and problems with large factions wanting a similar opportunity to remove themselves from the EU. That is something remain minded people ignore - along with most ( thats that word again) other things.

I think we will never get back to ‘normal’ whatever that is. This issue has divided society, including families, and many people seem to have become more intolerant of others’ opinions. The aggression shown towards people with an opposite view and to MPs is shocking and it seems to be spilling over into sport where racism towards footballers is on the increase. The aggression seems to be a symptom of people’s anxiety over many issues including the environment, job security, health care, worries about poverty, housing and their children’s future. IMHO the intolerance will escalate if we have a second referendum.

Aprilrose I’m sorry this is causing you such problems, nobody should have to put up with insults, especially from a partner. I’m afraid I would lose respect for my DH if he behaved in this way. My parents always had different political views, my mother always voted Labour whereas my father always voted Conservative yet they had a very happy marriage, yes they had discussions about politics but always respected each other’s different views and rarely had a cross word.

Thank nonnie.
Would just like to add that I am genuinely ready to read explanations from leavers.
If there are sympathetic leavers on here who are willing to post then maybe they could see it as reassuring us that we really will be ok post-brexit (with or without a deal).

mcem Sun 20-Oct-19 12:20:28 good post

Interesting article here from Lord Mervyn King, ex Bank of England boss

news.sky.com/story/ex-bank-of-england-boss-uk-is-neglecting-deep-problems-with-economy-11840141

"Lack of understanding" does not equal stupid, thick or ignorant! Stop being defensive over a non-insult.
It simply means that the likely outcome of voting to leave was not made clear ( not even the facts that were known at the time).
Since the vote, more and more disturbing information has been revealed and it has taken time for all of us to understand the implications. There's no shame in saying that a change in knowledge may well justify a change of mind or of vote.

Had the "new" information shown me that the NHS would be safe, that we wouldn't be in thrall to Trump, that the whole move to brexit wasn't being manipulated by self-serving billionaires, that we weren't being led by a petulant fool acting like a stroppy toddler who wants his own way to the detriment of everyone else THEN with that assurance I would have (reluctantly) accepted a controlled, fair brexit

But now, knowing of the crisis being brought about in NI, of the iffy trade deals in the offing, of the lack of educational opportunities for our young folk, plus all the other dire situations we're likely to face (and that's even with a deal) I cannot see why, like many who have bravely admitted that they'd vote Remain if given the chance, that posters here are so determined.

Determined to do what?
Take back sovereignty? Send home immigrants who 'take our jobs'? Make Britain great again?Pass our own laws? All these points have been given as reasons to leave and time after time have been proved to be nonsense.
So please put me right and explain why my reasons for wanting to remain are so wrong.
Please also explain why I should change my mind and vote leave in the next referendum.

I too am heartily sick of it, I think the whole of Parliament is behaving disgracefully, and I’m not sure I will ever vote again.

I am a remainer, my best friend voted to leave, it has not, and never would come between us, we’ve had discussions, and agreed to disagree, although in my opinion, whether I liked the outcome of the referendum, or not, we voted to leave, so leave we must.

Aprilrose, if my husband ever called me thick or stupid, it would probably be the end of a long and mostly happy marriage.

aprilrose Sun 20-Oct-19 11:29:26 the word was 'some'. Why do you take that so personally? It really is not good for your cause to take that as an insult.

totally fed up to the back teeth of brexit but one thing it has shown me is how much the so called members of parliament are in it for them selves, total liars, lazy good for nothings, get us left and back to being the uk.

Chestnut Sun 20-Oct-19 10:02:05 I disagree because we all have the right to oppose something we believe is fundamentally wrong. If Hitler had been opposed by more people things could have been very different. "All it takes for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing". If you look at the crowds in London yesterday it will be obvious there is a very strong feeling out there. Now is the time to bring back democracy, we know what the offer really is and should have the opportunity to tell parliament what people want now.

aprilrose Sun 20-Oct-19 09:25:16 My experience has been very different to yours. I have been called all sorts of things my leavers because I continually ask the question "please tell me 3 ways you and your family will be better off if we leave the EU". Not one person has given me an answer, just called me nasty names.

We have a couple of friends who feel differently to us although the vast majority agree that leaving the EU will be a catastrophe for the UK. We haven't fallen out with any of them. One couple don't talk about it but one friend and I had a really sensible discussion where we both retained our views. No need to fall out just because we see things differently.