Can anyone apart from the elite, say what they want from Brexit

typo ad nauseum

Thank you for addressing my point growstuff and Monica. Slightly different opinions, but that’s to be expected.
This subject has been discussed ad nauseas on Gransnet and other places. Certainly on Gransnet very few seem to have changed their minds, myself being one of them. I just can’t see the point of continuing to discuss this over and over, in particular because it has been demanded of leavers over and again as to why they voted leave, and their reasons have been rubbished many times. Some remainers demand these explanations over and over again and leavers reply they have stated their reasons and are sick to the back teeth of doing so. Some start threads it appears to me, simply to be confrontational, some want to argue apparently. At times I have wondered if they’ve got nothing better to do than argue all day long online.
Nothing that is said on here is going to change the outcome, so therefore it’s pointless to keep on arguing and sometimes being very disrespectful to other posters. There are other threads of course, which I look at, but some of the remainers on here never appear on another thread. At the end of the day, no one has the right to demand explanations from other posters about why they voted as they did. Asking the question repeatedly serves no purpose other than to try to needle other people who don’t agree with you. Maybe we will all have the opportunity to vote again soon in an election.

petra, in regard to your post @08:52 today, commercial relations with China are governed by the 1985 EU-China Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Since 2007, negotiations have been underway to upgrade this to a new European Union Association Agreement and there are already 24 sectoral dialogues and agreements from environmental protection to education.

As can be seen, by the above, Trade Agreements take many years to negotiate and the European Union negotiations regarding China have been going on since 1985 and is still to be concluded fully.

The EU is a very powerful Bloc organisation when it comes to such negotiations and will not drop its standards and protections in such.

How then is Britain on its own going to fare in trying to negotiate such agreements as I feel that powerful countries such as China and the United States will insist that Britain lower its standards and protections to obtain trade agreements with countries such as them?

That will be to the detriment of all but a powerful few who reside in this country.

Anyway, of to the office now, see you later.

Monica I ageee with your last post, there needs to be a coming together of both sides. Not all that voted leave are extreme " Brexiteers" or right wing BNP supporters. Some like me listened to the younger generation, researched the EU and it's machinations and made up their mind in the polling booth. The only place I have encountered any nastiness, bullying or name calling for my decision is on GN.

I am very willing to be ridiculous. As to self righteous, I am not sure where that comes from, I just find the, sometimes over-emotional attitudes, and extreme positions many people espouse unhelpful at a time when more than anything a coming together and raprochment is needed.

I am not claiming any special value for my views. I just feel very uncomfortable faced with extremism.

So you think your own views give you the right to be just as ridiculous and sure of your own self-righteousness as you consider anyone else to be who puts their views forward on a forum M0nica. You are probably right about that if nothing else.

Grandad1943
^ should trade deals come about with nations that have low regulations built into their economies etc^

I think you'll find that we already do: it's called China, the eu is their largest trading partner.

Your post puts the Brexiteers intended outcome of leaving the EU very well Davidhs, but unfortunately Maizie is right that the vast majority of, at least, the vocal leavers have been told where the blame lies for all the ills they see in this country and they have chosen to to swallow the propaganda, hook line and sinker.

You might think that the last few years of incompetence we have seen, from the very Tories who have said this, would open their eyes to their incompetence running our country but sadly, the huge amount of money put behind their propaganda overwhelms the ability of some to reason their way through all this.

Maddyone, is right in principle, but not in practice. Certainly no random person should be put in a public witness book and interrogated about the minutae of their voting decision, but unless there is a dialogueand each side understands why the other side made the decision it did however are people ever to reach a consensus on the best way forward?

Surely what we are seeing at the moment is what happens when people are not discussing the issues, just hurling insults at each other and asserting they are right?

Frankly, as a Remainer, I think many of the arguments put forward by other Remainers, including a number on this thread about the fire and brimstone and economic disaster that will descend if we leave are ridiculous. I do not think it will be economically advantagious for us, but most of what is said is just doom mongering.

Both doom-mongering Remainers and triumphalist Leavers convinced that with one great leap they will be free have failed to notice that all the EU law passed in the 40 years we were a member have already been officially incorporated into British law through an Act of Parliament, so any subsequent changes away from EU will have to be debated and agreed before any change is made. Much of this law would have been debated and enacted in the British Parliament anyway and for once, commendably, Parliament decided not to re-invent the wheel and if the EU passed legislation, they did not insist on doing it themselves as well.

I am tempted to quote Michael Winner. Remember? 'Calm down, ladies (and gents). Calm down.

I completely agree with the post made by Davidhs @07:48 today. A deregulated Britain is exactly what Johnson and those around him wish as that will benefit the most powerful in our society to the detriment of working families on average incomes.

There is no Brexit utopia out there, but I in no way censure anyone who believed all the *propaganda" that was placed in the public domain by the very wealthy and powerful Brexit individuals who foreseen great advantage to themselves personally in the United Kingdom leaving the European Union.

I disagree with you maddyone. Everyone has the right to ask why some people have chosen an option which will affect the lives of everybody in the country. Everyone has the right to know why something is being done to them

The people who made that decision do, of course, have the right to refuse to answer. However, they need to be aware of the impression that gives.

They won't believe you, David.

If the aims of Brexit truly is to produce a deregulated, low tax society that would benefit the well off in society, this is a very shortsighted aim. Low tax means poorer services, deregulation means a free for all to rip off whoever you want, remember 2008 and the sub prime collapse.

That’s all very well for the fat cats that can make their fortune in a couple of years, the rest of us have to survive long term. As has been said in other posts if the UK does deregulate extensively there will be big tariffs on exports the latest Withdrawl Agreement does provide for that scenario.

The WA does start by envisaging a Free Trade Agreement but that is qualified by broadly equivalent standards and regulations. That will all be negotiated in the trade agreements in the coming year, so everything is still very uncertain, the eventual shape of trade after any transition cannot be foreseen.

Deregulation means less labour rights, less social services, lower environmental standards and poorer health services, this matches a lower tax regime. Is that is really what leavers want, at least a transition will soften the blow, in the end there are going a great many angry leavers when they don’t get the Utopia they voted for.

I have to agree with GracesGranMK3 in stating that it does seem to be a "very strange post" made by maddyone @23:51 yesterday.

This is a thread entitled "Can anyone apart from the elite, say what they want from Brexit". Therefore, I would believe that it would be obvious to the vast majority of forum members that anyone making a post on this thread would be willingly giving their views on Brexit and may well be asked questions on those views.

Should a forum member not wish to give those views or then not respond to any question asked of them, then they have the option of ignoring the entire thread completely or to ignore any question asked of them.

So, as stated, it seems a very strange post on this thread that states that forum members should not be asking questions of others on a thread that politely invited persons to willingly give their views.

In short, it's a forum in which any member can participate in a thread, or just read what is posted on a thread, or ignore the thread altogether.

The country voted by a slim, not a decisive, majority to leave the EU.

The Leave campaign was fraught with misleading information and outright lies.

The pursuit of a workable Brexit deal has cost vast sums of money.

The large majority of informed economic forecasts, from a variety of sources and perspectives, predict that most of us will be worse off after any sort of Brexit deal. Even some government ministers admit it.

The decision to leave the EU has profound and far-reaching effects on individuals and the country as a whole.

The government have been unable to tell us how we will be better off after Brexit than we were before.

Is it, therefore, so unreasonable that those who voted to remain in the EU should ask their most fervent leave-voting friends here on Gransnet for some sort of evidence-based reassurance that Remainers' fears are unfounded?
This is not the same as asking why anyone voted the way they did.

I understand the frustration of those who voted to leave, that Brexit is still dragging on. It is still dragging on because extricating ourselves from the EU is exceedingly complicated and everyone has wanted to get the best deal possible. I hope that leave voters can also understand the worries of remain voters, too.

Not trying to be confrontational here. Just anxious.

That was Maddyone not Maidstone.

What a weird post Maidstone. Shall we just put it down to being late at night?

No one, on this thread or any other, has the right to respectfully ask, or indeed to demand, that Leavers inform Remainers as to why they voted to leave the EU. I assume that none of you would, upon meeting a friend, or a colleague, or indeed anyone at all, none of you would demand an explanation as to why that person voted leave, assuming they stated that they did in a discussion. It’s bad manners to be so verbally aggressive, and it’s bad manners to demand an explanation for someone’s voting preference. Why therefore, would any Remainer on this site demand that Leavers explain themselves? I certainly have own opinions as to why Remainers voted as they did, but I have never demanded that they explain themselves, on or off this site.
Voting is conducted privately, it is no one’s business what a person’s reasons are for voting in a particular way. I think, with respect, that Remainers should back off. It’s not your business why any Gransnetter voted the way they did!

Pantglas I have to agree re the layers of government.

All the layers of the taxpayer funded cake need money not just for all their running costs (and they do not stint themselves re lavish buildings, expenses etc), they all have their 'pet projects' which require funding, often at the cost of basic services.

Aah we sold our “buy to let” property, reduced our mortgage, no holidays, no nights out and took our children out of private school.

What did you live off in the lean times?

I’ve worked for folks like you GrannyGravy13 and I’d have walked through fire for them almost. My DD now has staff at her small business and I’ve advised her to go above and beyond the basics and it will be returned in spades. Great employers usually have great staff and long may it continue.

Urmstongran our workforce are appreciated for their hard work and loyalty. Yes of course we benefit, but so do they. In the lean times they got paid and we didn’t.

GG13 I think the well being of your employees speaks volumes - you go above and beyond legislation for worker’s rights - and this is reflected in the loyalty of the long service that is afforded to your family business. Well done you.

GrannyGravy13 in regard to your post @20:30 today, regulation on maternity and paternity leave are the same for every company, just as the regulations on annual leave, workplace safety and much else are equal to all employers and commerce.

In the above such regulations prevent "a race to the bottom" which would undoubtedly begin should such legislation be removed.

It should always be remembered that with such regulations in place and being a member of the European Union Britain became the fifth largest economy in the world.

Therefore I feel the above proves that such regulations are not any significant incumbrance to British industry and commerce whatsoever.