Can anyone apart from the elite, say what they want from Brexit

And certainly no brussels sprouts with your turkey (not too sure about turkey, either). Though I apologise for deviating from the tea table..

No Danish pastries, either...

For most Leave voters, mainly the old and poor, the poor and disadvantaged, living in disadvantaged areas of the country, who have seen so many EU citizens come to this country in recent years and often do well, see them as the reason that they are not doing well.

The apocalyptic picture penned by Sussexborn is the exception not the rule. Most immigrants are filling well qualified jobs or working in perfectly ordinary jobs that do not require slave labour. Nevertheless they are seen as taking jobs away from local people and perception is all.

Those who voted leave are not now looking at pros and cons and judging arguments. They voted Leave, Leave had the majority in the Referendum and they do not know why we are still in the EU.

They see the current shenanigans as one more betrayal of their interests by the elite. They voted leave because they were aggrieved, and have good reason to be, that the share of the national cake coming there way was smaller than it should be and believed, and still believe that their slice would be bigger if we were out of the EU because they will no longer have to share their slice with all the EU citizens in this country. They also blame the EU for every other ill they have suffered in recent years.

They are interested in one thingonly that we get out of the EU and questioned now would be as happy with a no deal exit as anything else.

Viennese Whirl anyone?

What is this " tea table" of which you speak?

I agree Maizie. What proof is there Lemongrove that low wages will improve? The people who want this and want continue in power have Singapore in mind when they look at our future.

Please tell me how you, let alone those currently on low wages see yourself living under such a regime?

All these pats on the back for someone being, to put it kindly, economic with th truth. Why shout so loudly for lies? You must see that something will improve life beyond what we are losing and yet all we hear are lines similar to football chants, prejudice, complaints about things being said that are simply not being said and lies that are either known to be lies or, more worrying, are being believed.

Don't leave voters think that, if by now someone had shown a really good future if we leave, vast numbers of voters would have changed their minds. But they still seem unable to give us any good reason why the whole country, or even any of the people other than the very wealthy, would benefit from this.

I'm not coming unless they are jammie dodgers or home made.

Does that mean Nice are out as well? How come we have so many European biscuits? They'll all have to go!!!

I'm not sure we can allow bourbons, or garibaldis. Too much of a European connection..

My mother in law would never allow biscuits on the tea table but if you fancy a bourbon feel free! One of the few biscuits I don’t like!

The constant demands for proof of what is going to happen in the future is pointless bordering on ridiculous. Particularly from those who are doing their level best to talk up failure just so they can self righteously gloat. Who knows what may or may not happen in the future? Who knew that Volkswagen/Renault were lying about their emissions and cheating the vehicle buying public? Who would have imagined the German economy would be teetering on the edge of recession? All we can do is think carefully and reach our own decision.

There would definitely be cake for the tea time Trotskies! There might even be cucumber sandwiches with the crusts removed. Whoever heard of afternoon tea with no cake?

I first heard the expression from one of the dads at my children’s London school. He was fed up with the parents who claimed to be socialists but looked down their noses at him because he was a plumber. He overheard one of the most ardent socialists expressing surprise that his son had won a scholarship to Dulwich College because he was a “plumbers son”. Needless to say this person then paid for her son to go privately elsewhere so he didn’t need to mix with the hoi polloi at the local comprehensive.

We all have different life experiences that come to bear on making important decisions and it is insulting when people assume that others are ignorant and stupid if they don’t reach the same conclusion.

I see no barrage, only biscuits. Are we still allowed Bourbon?

lemongrove Mon 28-Oct-19 14:01:28 you are right, things could change in the EU but should we leave no because they might at some point in the future? If it were obvious to us all that being in the EU was really bad for us it would be a simple matter to agree to leave. It is not at this point which is why it has taken so long for nothing to happen.

Sussexborn Mon 28-Oct-19 13:46:36 I am a loss to know where you think the "continuous barrage of vile and abusive condemnation of people who exercised their democratic right to vote." comes from as I haven't seen it. Yes, I have seen some opinions that leave voters were mistaken, didn't understand the consequences, all voted for different types of Brexit, were conned by liars etc. but is that 'vile and abusive'? On the contrary I have been very abused on Twitter by leavers and I mean very!

What have you done about the illegal immigrants? Surely you don't just let it go on without doing something?

You mention young people twice are the ones who didn't vote the same ones who can't get good jobs? Perhaps they could pick some of the apples left rotting on the ground because we cannot get anyone to pick them now that the seasonal workers have abandoned us.

I agree there are two sides but I would like to know what the other side feels and why they believe they would be better off outside the EU. We won't know why we are wrong if no one will tell us.

lemongrove Mon 28-Oct-19 13:36:18 please explain why you believe that "Life will get better, particularly for the lower paid in the UK when we are out of the EU.It will take time," How will that be achieved?

How do you think we will get better trade deals than we already have with the EY and the 70+ countries we have deals with as part of our membership?

Do you have evidence that we will have to join the EU? I have seen that said but no one has ever been able to substantiate it. No it isn't in the Lisbon Treaty.

growstuff Mon 28-Oct-19 13:31:52 yes, I think you are right. I have read many who seem to have voted against the EU rather than for anything. I say again, EU is not perfect but if you produce a balance sheet for being in or leaving it is patently obvious that staying in is better for us.

trisher Mon 28-Oct-19 13:17:05 I agree its the same old same old remainers are wrong be we are not going to tell you why.

Labaik Mon 28-Oct-19 13:30:10 yes, that is what I think the OP asked for but I doubt you will get it. I've been asking for 3+ years and keep being told I have had an answer but I haven't. I've been told to 'look it up' and I have tried time and again but cannot find anything. At least on here they are only a little bit unpleasant on Twitter some of the comments are not only illiterate and illogical they are also downright rude! I really do not understand why someone can have a strong opinion, come on a thread like this, be confrontational and not give their opinion. Quite beyond me.

That's happened before the referendum. Some people said we could have a Norwegian type deal; others a Swiss type deal; others didn't have a clue, but just hated Tusk and/or furinners.

We could have a points based immigration system or none at all.

We could spend the money from the side of the bus on this, that and everything (a bit like a child with its Christmas money).

I find it stunning that people still haven't grasped the realities.

I don't want 'coulds' I want 'woulds'. Anyone can put forward an argument saying 'could'....

Vile and abusive? Really?

When people come out with accusations like that, I don't see there's anything to do except laugh.

I'm always amazed at this assertion that wages will improve once we're out of the EU. Why would that be?

Studies have shown that the only effect that EU workers have had on wages is to keep the very lowest wages lower by a few pence than they might have been without the EU workers.

fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-jobs-labour-market-effects-immigration/?utm_source=content_page&utm_medium=related_content

I realise that the Posted Workers directive has been blamed for past discrepancies in wages but that's set to change:

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?langId=en&catId=89&newsId=2488&furtherNews=yes

Why, when wages have been held down by tory austerity for the past decade, does anyone believe that leaving the EU will make any difference? We'll just ship workers in from the rest of the world and pay them as little as we can get away with...

Don't think a points system will do anything to change this. We have a shrinking workforce. We need immigrants.

no immigrants? Oh the hilarity. Possibly less educated ( let's face it white ) immigrants ,and more poorer non EU immigrants?

grapefruitpip I think it's probably me. But if so I want to know why I've been down graded from a champagne socialist !! (although I don't mind being a tea-time Trotsky if there is cake),
So one of the arguments being suggested is that wages will improve because there will be no immigrants, at the same time we will lose the protection of EU law which has already outlawed zero hours contracts. UK legislation is not as rigorous as theirs. It will mean a race to the bottom.

You can’t be certain of anything in this life Labaik ( except for death and taxes) or of anything if we had stayed in the EU as time goes on.What we could control though is what happens in our own country.

But al of this is what 'might' happen. You're talking as if it is cast in stone that it will. What guarantees can you give thatyou are correct. And what makes you so certain that everyone will have to join the euro? Isn't it all a bit hypothetical on your part? If I want my country to changes in such a dramatic way I would like a bit more certainty about it. And can you be certain that 'the troubles' won't start up again.