Pointless exercise and waste of money

Thank you for putting it all so clearly grannygranby. It's a very depressing situation. I'm hoping the HoL might refuse to vote for the election but it is probably a pipe dream.

The rot started with the ill-conceived and poorly executed referendum in 2016. It was Cameron's weak attempt at appeasing the Tory Eurosceptics. No one thought that Leave would win and so nobody had prepared for it and nobody new how to go about leaving the EU. Hence, three years of bickering and increasing divisiveness and polarisation.

Many people feel like victims, but the biggest victim in all this mess is Truth.

Amagran, fantastic summing up. Fantastic.

Amagran
Where did I say that Johnson didnt lie?

to claim that highly trained lawyers have manipulated the law to frustrate Brexit it to display ignorance of the law and the facts. The brexiteers manipulated the law and constitution routinely to assign significance to a referendum that in law was an advisory vote and then the Tory brexiteer government tried to illegally circumvent parliament attempting to undertake actions that they had no power to do. Fortunately clever lawyers frustrated those unconstitutional acts.

Now we are facing an election that is designed to stop parliament from scrutinising a piece of legislation that has been accepted in principle by parliament, but is not providing what the nation has been told, by the Prime Minister, it provides and would be exposed as a fraud.

My view is that the opposition parties have fallen into the elephant trap that they were warned about months ago.

Where did Amagran say that you did say that, Petra?

I wish they would get on with agreeing the deal tied to a second referendum - then we would KNOW what we're voting for (rather than the different forms of Leave we now know exist). Put it back to us - let the People decide. A GE will solve absolutely nothing.

I'm with you Amagran!

Basically, imho, the Tories will get in because the public know they're determined to leave and those who voted to leave will vote for them and those who don't really care and are just fed up with the whole business will vote for them. Many people forget that there are other issues at stake here, austerity being the primary one. As I say, just my opinion.

Well put, absthame!

GrannyGranby.

Well said. Wish I could have said all that, so well. Parameters should have been set when the referendum was launched. As for the workshy three: bojo, Fox, and Davis - they should refund their salaries or the huge expense they have caused, and no work done. Nothing. Just idlers.

Thank you, Grannygranby, it's the first time in a very long time that I have read a summing-up that was actually based on facts.

Er, some lawyers do break the law. There was a solicitor not a million miles from us who was struck off for fraud and money laundering - it wasn't just a case of manipulating loopholes.
Sadly it's hardly unknown.

Not that I'm suggesting it's going to happen in the midst of this current shambles. There will be too many well informed eagle eyes scrutinising everything.

Hi Margeaux. I disagree. I immediately saw the problems of the border when I voted Remain. The only organ that reported the problem fully at the time was the NewStatesman. You don't have to be predictive genius to understand that no border to border on the island of Ireland is a massive problem. It's not a place that has fully healed from the Troubles and it would be like a spark to a tinder box. The unity of both sides being in the EU has been a salve without which we would never have kept the Good Friday Agreement. A real blessing. The trouble is Parliament would be very happy to disregard Union demands and only because the Conservatives need their votes have they been courted.Sinn Fein wont take their seats...Stormant doesn't sit...its a can of worms that getting out of the EU has presented and was ignored at the referendum. Nought to do with negotiion details on trade.

A second referendum with the same result /even higher majority for leave would see us where?

Certain that we really mean it, I assume.

Great reply. Thanks

I was disgusted at Cameron. Cowardly action. However, I did know that Leave meant leave, a large proportion of remainers unfortunately didn't, some didn't get out of bed early enough, and they are on about reducing the voting age to 16, why not 12? In the real world Lawyers do use the law to suit, how many guilty people have been let off on a technicality. things will carry on with ever more reason for delay. Thank goodness it's nearly Christmas and they can all break up for a nice long holiday, after the election of course, all ready to start again into its fourth year.

Really not sure what the interpretation of the law has to do with our current situation with regards to Brexit

Politicians keep on about "respecting the result of the referendum", but surely respecting the 52/48 result was to leave the EU, while staying as close as possible with customs union, security cooperation etc.
Theresa May compounded David Cameron's incompetence by throwing her hand in with the extremists, and inventing red lines which really made a compromise impossible.

a large proportion of remainers unfortunately didn't, some didn't get out of bed early enough

and you know this because.......?

Ann Widdecombe hits the nail right on the head about how shocking our government and parliament are and how the speaker has not been impartial. They are a disgrace. She strongly believes in Democracy which at the moment is totally being ignored. Three cheers for Ann Widdecombe. Just my humble opinion.

Great work GrannyG
Reasoned, intelligent and comprehensible!
If only we could think of a way to get you into number 10!

Thank you grapefruitpip, grandtanteJE65
JaquiG Mcem and others for your kind words, some of our posts get confusingly out of order! By the time we think and respond loads of stuff has come and moved on. But I think we get what each other are saying. GE perhaps necessary distraction though I campaigned and marched for peoples vote. Still furious that Corbyn put a three line whip on Article 50! It wasn’t actually the referendum that made the decision to leave it was parliament. Lots of changing of horses. We’ll see... I’m sticking with channel 4 because I trust Jon Snow...ive suddenly got an ear infection and have gone deaf..might be a blessing.

Peony
Parliamentary Briefing Paper number 07212 was published on June 3, 2015 making it clear to all MPs and members of the House of Lords that the referendum was advisory only and would not be binding on Parliament or government. This was reiterated in mid-June (see Hansard for June 16, 2015) in the House by the then Minister for Europe, David Lidington, currently frequently described as the Prime Minister’s deputy. Section 5 of paper 07212 states that the referendum is non-binding, advisory and consultative while section 6 says that if there were to be any suggestion otherwise (i.e., if the result were to be binding) there would need to be a “supermajority” requirement, for example 60 per cent or 66 per cent of the entire electorate or of the votes cast, as required in civilised democratic advanced states. Mr Lidington on the occasion of the debate covered in Hansard uttered the following statement: “The legislation is about holding a vote; it makes no provision for what follows. The referendum is advisory.”