Considering voting Labour?

Oopsminty Where do people get the idea that Labour hates the wealthy. I and my friends are not hugely wealthy but are comfortably off and we are all Labour supporters.

We have more than enough for our needs but not necessarily for our wants. I for example wish I had sufficient resources to be able to travel to wherever there is a ballet company that I want to see, or a jazz festival. Others have different wants.

What we all want is for everyone to have access to a good education, followed by good training - not necessarily universities. We want them to have a good start in life and access to good healthcare.

The difference is that in a salaried post, overtime has to be pre-approved. Which means that if you leave 2 hours later than your paid hours just because things ran over: tough. (And Drs rarely clock out on time!)
If you're bank, you can submit the time you actually left.
So its the same work, the same patient care, but you're paid for it all on bank!

And do you imagine a zero hours contracted consultant would be different in some way? Some provision is better than none whatsoever.

On paper.

In reality contracted hours doctors are working way more than their paid hours!

Actually notanan2 properly negotiated consultant contracts include time for updating patient records and completing paperwork. I don't know where you get your ideas from but I know this through personal connections. Usually it is worked on a percentage basis so say 1 days work would mean one or two hours for record keeping.

You haven't provided any real evidence for the retention of zero hours contracts, simply asserted that you and a few other people like them.

Not a few. The NHS is the biggest employer in the country. One of the biggest employers in the world. A lot of their staff chose these contracts. Alternatives are available. There are many outstanding vacancies for permanant contracts in the NHS at all grades yet people at all grades still chose the zero hour contracts.

That's not "a few"

The evidence is there. Readily available. The NHS has vacancies at all grades yet has thousands chosing bank. Why? Unless people LIKE them?

Could well be that one of the 2 permanant consultants they say they have on the team is older and planning to apply for the bank job to "wind down" and guess what? Have MORE patient clinic time, freeing up the full time permanant post for some new blood?

As I said. Not unusual at senior level for posts to be created with someone in mind. Sometimes the person it's created for write the job description to suit them. That could be the case there? And wouldnt be at all unusual. Its a way to retain people.

You cannot deduce any of that from that job advert. If anything the consultant grade dictors who arent on the full time permanant contracts tend to get more patient contact time as they are often the ones covering extra clinics!

They are required to keep exactly the same notes/paperwork.

and almost certainly will not be contracted for the time currently allowed to consultants with proper employment contracts for maintaining patient notes What you mean their "lunch breaks" and the hour before they officially start and the 2hrs they stay after their paid hours finish and the popping to their desks on their days off?
At least the BANK doctors can claim the hours the actually WORK! Fixed salary Drs work many many unpaid hours. No wonder some may prefer bank.

Interesting that you focus entirely on the doctor's viewpoint and the logistics of why a consultant should be on a zero hours contract notanan2. The point surely is that regardless of the theatre time allotted the consultant is very likely not to have any other contact time with patients, and almost certainly will not be contracted for the time currently allowed to consultants with proper employment contracts for maintaining patient notes, resulting in a less satisfactory experience for patients.
You haven't provided any real evidence for the retention of zero hours contracts, simply asserted that you and a few other people like them. People wanting flexible working can do such work without any contract as casual staff. People wanting regular work should at least be given a minimum number of hours so that they can plan their lives.

I think it is labour that fail to see the bigger picture. They never want to tweak or perfect! Zero hour contract abuse could be tackled without banning all zero hour contracts! Then you address the bad and retain the good: THAT'S looking at the bigger picture!

They won't learn from experience (e.g. landlord licence zones. FAILED catestrophically at council level to make things better for renters but LETS ROLL IT OUT NATIONALLY ANYWAY)

The problem I have with your posts notanan is that you are asserting so much but providing no real evidence except that based on personal experience which isn’t good enough. You can describe what you have seen as happening but not what the result of this widespread use of these contracts amounts to. They clearly worked for you and I can hear your enthusiasm for them, but you really ought to look at the bigger picture where so many of them are used in an exploitative way.

Funnily enough WWM2 just a few post back you accused me of having no personal experience of such things, as I was posting about the genetal bigger picture, until that wasnt good enough and you wanted me to have personal experience....which I then shared...

Hmmm

I watched question time last week and there was a debate on zero hours contracts workers. 3 in the audience spoke of their experiences 2 enjoyed working that way 1 didn't. Another audience member who ran a state school said it worked well for them too.

And this incredibly small self-selected sample tells us exactly what, Tooting29

By typical I meant the way it treats its employees.

The problem I have with your posts notanan is that you are asserting so much but providing no real evidence except that based on personal experience which isn’t good enough. You can describe what you have seen as happening but not what the result of this widespread use of these contracts amounts to. They clearly worked for you and I can hear your enthusiasm for them, but you really ought to look at the bigger picture where so many of them are used in an exploitative way. They don’t work for the worker but work really well for the bottom line. There must be balance.

I’m off to bed now with my book “The Hundred Year’s War” ??.

WWWM2. Would zero hours workers earn enough to pay tax and national insurance to the state and get a state pension

There are at present about 780000 zero hours workers, how many if those has a pension?
Then make sure all zero hr contracts comply with the workplace pension schemes. Rather than ban'em!

You obsess about the NHS because it seems that is all you are familiar with.
Partially. Sure. But also because labour supporters say that they are the only ones who care about the NHS yet they will allow their party to cause absolute havoc across the NHS by doing this!

But I would suggest to you that it isn’t typical
The NHS is not a small minority employer. It is probably one of the largest employer of 0hr contracted workers in the country. I'm sorry but that cannot so easily be dismissed as an "exception"

I watched question time last week and there was a debate on zero hours contracts workers. 3 in the audience spoke of their experiences 2 enjoyed working that way 1 didn't. Another audience member who ran a state school said it worked well for them too.

‘Free personal care for the elderly’

A sizeable proportion - will rummage out the numbers - who need social care provision to thrive or live independently are under 65 years old. To assume that only the elderly are in need for free social care is profoundly ageist & disablist given that it is disability rather than the passage of time that accounts for the social care need in <65yos.

Could bung <65yos into a home as well but it’ll get awfully crowded....

I think you have met your match WWM2

Oh notanan

There are at present about 780000 zero hours workers, how many if those has a pension?

You obsess about the NHS because it seems that is all you are familiar with. But I would suggest to you that it isn’t typical. Neither does it from what I have read from its publication on the subject something that they necessarily agree with.

You seriously have no idea.

Oh I know. Only labour supporters give this stuff any thought right?

Plus no pension when you come to retirement age - if you ever do.

NHS bank staff get NHS pensions (unless they opt out)

tell you what , try it out for a few weeks and juggle paying rent, UC, buying school uniforms, paying utilities, the weekly shop , transport and living in fear of not getting those precious hours and then get back to us.

You seriously have no idea.

I already have. How else did you think I knew so much about it?

Plus no pension when you come to retirement age - if you ever do.

It is a long term recipe for disaster.

Of course you average rickshaw driver/parcel delivery person/care worker will easily be on £ 30,000..... or not?

Again with swings and roundabouts, this is actually why some lower pay band NHS workers chose to give up their permanant contracts and do only bank. They can boost their income up to the equivalent of the next pay band just by being free to chose to only work the higher value shifts (nights, weekends, bank holidays). They may not otherwise be able to achieve that kind of pay boost without re-training!

So the higher income for some more than compensates for the other comprimises.

tell you what , try it out for a few weeks and juggle paying rent, UC, buying school uniforms, paying utilities, the weekly shop , transport and living in fear of not getting those precious hours and then get back to us.

You seriously have no idea.