Who is going to care for all these extra children?

That’s horrible Growstuff- I know when I found a part time job once my DD went to school there was some tut-tutting but mainly from older women who’d not done so themselves.

I felt fortunate to have the best of both worlds and know I did the best thing for my family - each to their own.

janipat When my children were little, we lived in a village, where the vast majority of mothers didn't work because they didn't need to. I was the one who was ostracised and rubbished because I worked full-time. I don't think I could have stood being part of any of the bitchy cliques, but it was quite hurtful that they ostracised my children too.

Nurseries and nursery schools in the UK have a much higher adult/child ratio than in France. I'd have to look them up.

Up to the age of two, my own children were in a nursery, where the ratio was 1:3. Staff weren't distracted by all the other chores a stay-at-home parent has, so in terms of actual contact time, I wouldn't mind betting they had more adult contact than a child at home with a parent.

I can only confirm what has already been said regarding nursery schools in France. My daughters went when they were two where they could play while learning with others, much more than I could in my small flat. Nursery started at 8.30am. We had the choice of them staying for lunch and then sleeping in a dorm and picking them up at 4 o clock or coming home at 11.30am for the rest of the day. It was/is free except for the lunches.
Nursery and primary schools in those days did not open on Wednesdays, however primary school children had to go to classes at 8.30 on Saturday mornings. The nursery schools were open but it wasn't obligatory. There were about 25 children to a class and the teacher had an assistant.
Moreover, in Australia the locals and in China the long stay foreigners, tried to get their young children to be allowed to join the French nursery school, when I was there.

In addition, it is PROVEN that children develop better (socially, academically, emotionally) if they are in an educational setting earlier. So actually, children in daycare develop more quickly than children at home with mum.

The BEST childcare system I've ever seen however, is in China. The grandparents retire MUCH earlier than we do in the UK. By 50, grandmothers are retired. Grandparents provide free childcare while the parents work. It is very common to see elderly couples pushing pushchairs, holding the hands of toddlers, taking them to the park, in the supermarkets.

GagaJo these two paragraphs seem slightly contradictory? Are you saying grandparents doing the childminding is the best of the inferior ways of raising a child?
I support parents who wish to work outside the home, or parents who chose to stay at home to bring up their children. What I have a problem with is the assertion so often that a parent staying at home with their child is the lowest form of childcare and that these children don't develop as well as their counterparts who are placed in a nursery environment. My neighbours opposite, the dad has stayed home for the past 5 years to bring up their twins, while mum who has greater earning potential returned to work very early. Their children are delightful, sociable and intelligent. Maybe some would think that's because it wasn't their mum doing it? In the support of women who return to work for whatever reason, I so wish it wasn't the norm to rubbish those women that don't. Not much sisterly support there.

I began this thread Iam64 so must take some responsibility. It is the wording. Emotive subject I'm afraid and bound to cause controversy but there we have it. We only have one chance at life - I think - so have to make difficult choices along the way.
As soon as we mention childcare all the old prejudices rise up.

Who is going to say "I made a bad choice?"
My children were ruined by terrible preschool experience. I don't think so.

I have friends who Home school, others who pay a fortune to have their offspring privately educated, or move house to be in the catchment area for the "best" schools. or nurseries. We all want what we hope is the best for them because we love them and if we think/believe that being at home with mum is the best thing then it is.

It's not just a question of finances at the time. Although childcare costs were ruinous (at one point she and SiL had two in daycare 4 days a week) my dd works in a specialised field she enjoys and is good at. If she'd taken a few years off it would have probably been impossible for her to get back on the career ladder where she stepped off.

Having said that, if money were not an issue at all, and if she could have been sure of returning to the career ladder where she'd left it, I'm sure she'd have liked to stay at home with her little ones for rather longer. For a start, she'd have been less tired.

It's just not an option for so many parents nowadays though, particularly given the way housing costs have soared in the last 15 years or so, compared to incomes.

I despair that whenever this subject is discussed, some posters take up such judgemental, critical positions about any 'mother' (and it always is the mother) who choses or economic reasons mean she has no choice, but to return to work.
As others have said, the evidence is clear, that children benefit from attending good quality pre school care. that includes nurseries, which are no longer places where children are to use the phrase used here "farmed out".

Scottish Government is introducing (being trialled this year) increased free childcare for all 3 year olds and some 2 year olds next year. There are not enough council nursery places so child minders and private nurseries once signed up will be used as well. You don't have to accept all the hours and can mix and match. DD2 currently has child minder for 2 days costing £505 per month even when CM is ill or on holiday. She is a nurse and leaves house at 7am getting home (if lucky) at 6pm. We do 2 days and baby's aunt another day. This will help her stay in a job which she loves but is difficult as DGS2 is 19 months and lately very clingy to mummy. He cries when he is taken away in morning though soon settles. It's better when we have him as I drive her to work and he is ok when she goes into work then we do activities together. The child care is left to each LA to organise and they are all doing it differently so very complex! In DD1 primary school (she is a teacher) the nursery is one of the trial sites and because the children are offered full time care now the places have been cut in half so parents may be offered a nursery place in a different town within the county - not always accessible on country buses so how that will work I have no idea. Also the children in nursery are in school longer than the children in primary 1 and 2 which is bizarre.

SO many judgments on here! A lot of ignorance of how HARD it is these days for young families. A mortgage for a small family house can take up to 75% of the bread winners wages, house prices are so high. The other partner 99% of the time has no choice other than to work.

I have a couple of young teacher friends. They couldn't AFFORD for her to take the whole year off after the birth of their first baby and had no choice, other than to put him into a nursery, which is STILL taking a large percentage of her wages. And they are professionals in the north of England where house prices are low.

In addition, it is PROVEN that children develop better (socially, academically, emotionally) if they are in an educational setting earlier. So actually, children in daycare develop more quickly than children at home with mum.

The BEST childcare system I've ever seen however, is in China. The grandparents retire MUCH earlier than we do in the UK. By 50, grandmothers are retired. Grandparents provide free childcare while the parents work. It is very common to see elderly couples pushing pushchairs, holding the hands of toddlers, taking them to the park, in the supermarkets.

I wish I could be retired and do the childcare and then home school my grandson. But by the time I retire, he'll be post university and probably married.

I think it is terrible that babies need to go into nurseries at all, i'm glad i could look after mine at home, but had to sacrifice financially ,as a lone divorced mother,,
I would have loved to be able to work, but no free nurseries anyway then, but babies should be at home with mum in my opinion
Women weren't pushed out to work then though like now

I'm not saying that people who stay at home with their children aren't using their brains. I am saying that the idea that only those who need the money go to work is false, or that some women somehow pretend that they need the money as an excuse to work.

If they are lucky, people can make choices; but these depend on all sorts of things - money may be a factor, but so may a desire for financial independence or a need to be doing something outside of the home. People rarely question a man's need to work, whether or not he is a father, and he is not percieved to be short-changing his children by doing so.

Also, working mums and dads still talk to their children, educate them and teach them about the same things as stay at home parents, and many people use TV as a babysitter, whether they are at home or at work.

I've asked my own children whether they think they missed out on anything and they don't think they did.

One thing I hated was the judgmental bats at the school gate whenever I did take my children to school.

Well said Grandma70s

No, it is a choice- but needs to be a genuine choice- not an expectation of the mother. For all sorts of reasons, I was at home until they both went to school, and I went to Uni. I had to support OH in his Junior years, working amazingly long hours, nights and week-ends too- and be a glorified, free, receptionist too. It was not because he was the man, and I the woman- it was as it was. When the time came- he supported me 100% in my choice to go to Uni as mature student. When I was told, by a woman lecturer who interviewed me for the course 'hasn't your husband got enough on his plate without his wife wanting to go into full time study' - he was even more up in arms about it than I was.

Many little ones grow up watching TV 24/7, with little socialisation and or 'education'.

DoodleDog, why do you suggest someone bringing up children isn’t using their brains? I have two degrees (good ones) and I never felt I was wasting my brains. Looking after children is a lot more than changing nappies and feeding them. It’s talking to them and educating them about many aspects of the world, nature and literature. It’s very odd that it’s considered a job if a nanny does it, but not if a parent does it, Both my children could read before they started school. Our days were so relaxed and happy. We walked to and from playgroup and school, taking our time. I see the way my grandchildren are rushed about in cars and the endless hassle if someone supposed to be caring for them is ill or unable to come, and I feel it’s all a bit unstable. I know children from decent families turn out all right however they’re brought up, but they miss so much.

Sorry, Grammaretto, that was to JenniferEccles.

Yes, that was your decision, and nobody is suggesting that you should have done otherwise.

It's not for everyone, though, and it depends on what your values are. Parents who want their children to value independence, making a contribution to society and financial equality are more likely to go out to work.

Children are not animals - they don't get 'farmed out'. As others have said, good childcare teaches a lot of things that can't be learned in the home.

The thread is about childcare, which, by definition, is for women who do work, so it is difficult not to see your use (twice) of that word as a deliberate attempt to be unkind to women who chose to work.

As there is so much evidence that children thrive when being looked after by qualified, caring staff or loving grandparents, however, I hope that it will fall on deaf ears.

My DM was a single parent, (widow) who had a choice back in the 1950s to stay home and live on her widow's pension and charity to help buy any extras. She had no family to help.
The other choice was to get a job and put my baby brother into a state day nursery with me and DS going to school and going to neighbours after school. It was very piecemeal and I remember lying sick on a strange neighbour's couch on more than one occasion.

She chose to work and we survived and were proud of our mum.
I like to think life nowadays isn't so hard for single parents or people who have to have 2 incomes to survive.

Good on the Scandis for investing in their young people.

All I know is when I had my children I wanted to bring them up myself with my values. There is no way I would have farmed my children out to some childminder or nursery.

We weren’t wealthy as we had more than one mortgage then but it was our decision to raise our own children and we managed.

As someone else said why have children then farm them out to someone else?

I have never been convinced that all the mothers who work really need to financially.

No, some of them have brains and want to use them, or would like financial independence, the same as fathers who go out to work.

I never stopped work, we just cobbled something together as best we could and no Grandma either.

Long story short..... I couldn't look after my babies and Dad stepped in.Thank God, we got through. I do believe Mum is best and home is best and we are doing tiny children a dis service by putting the in care for 10 hour days.

Only in the UK

I am very, very glad that I was able to look after my own children. I realise it’s occasionally a necessity to hand them over to someone else, but to me it seems quite unnatural. I really enjoyed caring for mine. There were lots of stay-at-home mothers then (1970s) so we were not bored or lonely, and anyway, I liked talking to the children.

I also think it's unfair to expect grandparents to take on the job. I wouldn’t have dreamt of asking my parents to look after my children, other than occasional babysitting. It wasn't their job; it was mine and my husband’s. Why don’t parents think that any more?

Agreed- and yet. Few women doctors become Consultants- as their choice to work part-time (and it is a valid choice of course) means they will never make it to the 'top of' profession. Same for teachers, and so many other professions. If we think it is good for society to have women in 'top' positions to influence our society- then part-time is generally not the way. Very difficult to be Senior anything when part-time- or returning from years of part-time.