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Unman Khan and some light on the issue

(115 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Mon 02-Dec-19 08:48:43

After Johnson yesterday sought to gain political capital on the death if British citizens, I thought it would be useful to outline the whole issue in detail, with the help of an excellent Guardian article.

Why did Usman Khan go to jail?

Convicted in 2012. Case involving al-Qaida inspired groups intent on setting up a terrorist camp in Pakistan and carry out attacks in Kashmir.

Khan pleaded guilty.

Sentence

Justice Wilkie considered Khan enough of a long term risk to the public for him to receive an indeterminate sentence rather than a fixed term. Indeterminate means that he could not be released without parole board approval.

Appeal

Successful.
Leveson concluded that khan terror plans largely related to overseas and therefor not a substantial risk to the public. Khan received 16 years. Release after 8.

The Law
The type of sentence Khan received was an extended sentence for public protection, introduced by Labour in April 2005, alongside the IPP sentence.
Both types of sentence required that a parole board assessment be made before release.
In 2008 Labour changed the law to ease pressure on the soaring prisoner numbers. This required that only that extended sentences the requirement for parole oversight was removed.
Khan became automatically eligible for release midway through his term.
Rules for terrorism sentencing was changed by the Conservatives in 2015 as the Islamic state grew. All terrorist prisoners now have to apply for parole.

Is Johnson right in blaming labour?

Conclusion - no

It is true that Labour”s 2008 law change created the type of sentence that allowed automatic release, but Labour also created a viable alternative, in the indeterminate sentence, which required parole board oversight.

The Tory manifesto does say “we will introduce thought sentencing for the worst offenders and dnd automatic halfway release from prison for serious crimes” but is has nothing specific on terror offences.

Johnson assertion that terrorists spend 14 years in prison is new.

Is anyone to blame

Difficult.

Labour gave the judges a choice
An indeterminate sentence which required parole oversight
Or
A determinate sentence which did not.

Justice Wilkie chose the first, the court of appeal overturned his decision.

The Law changes by the Tories have simply reduced the discretion available to the judges in terror cases.

varian Mon 02-Dec-19 18:23:10

Is Mr Merritt what The Daily Mail and Express might call one of the "liberal do gooder types"?

varian Mon 02-Dec-19 18:09:45

David Merritt, whose son Jack was one of two people killed by convicted terrorist Usman Khan on Friday, condemned the prime minister and Priti Patel, the home secretary, for using the attack as justification for a series of tougher criminal policies.

Mr Merritt suggested the Tories were using his son's death to promote "vile propaganda" and shared a tweet accusing Mr Johnson of trying to "make political gain from people's death in a terror incident".

Cambridge University graduate Jack Merritt, 25, worked for the Learning Together programme, which uses education to try to rehabilitate prisoners into the community.

Following the attack, the Conservatives vowed to toughen terror sentences and stop criminals entering the UK from the EU, and launched a crackdown on people convicted of terrorism offences who had been released early.

That prompted Mr Merritt to share a tweet by left-wing journalist and academic Ash Sarkar which said: "It's beyond disgusting that Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and newspapers like the [Daily] Mail are using Jack Merritt's death and image to promote an agenda he fought against all his life. He was a passionate believer in rehabilitation and transformative justice, not draconian sentencing."

He then retweeted a second post by Ms Sarkar which said: "Jack Merritt's family and loved ones have asked that rightwing newspapers and political parties not use his murder to advance reactionary demands. If you see it happening, call it out. They deserve so much better."

Mr Merritt also posted two front-page articles about the Conservatives' crackdown on released terror offenders, writing: "Don't use my son's death, and his and his colleague's photos - to promote your vile propaganda. Jack stood against everything you stand for - hatred, division, ignorance."

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-london-bridge-terror-attack-jack-merritt-father-daily-mail-a9228886.html

jo1book Mon 02-Dec-19 17:14:19

M.
Thanks for info..

M0nica Mon 02-Dec-19 17:11:17

jolbook Khan was an official attender at the meeting in one of the meeting rooms. Phtographs suggested that there were only about 30 people in the meeting. It was not the sort of meeting where you would have a security man sitting in. Indeed given the nature of the meeting, I would think that would have been firmly rejected.

There was an interview with the manager at Fishmonger's Hall at lunch today. Their security was fine. The entrance doors were kept locked and they tried not to unlock them and let him out, but he was threatening staff and they decided.with the police already on their way that it was safer to open the doors.

It was quite clear in the interview that FH staff responded quickly and very courageously and at least one has already been nominated for a gallantry award.

Grany Mon 02-Dec-19 16:40:54

TerriBull Asked by Sophie Ridge. Jeremy Corbyn he said shoot to kill was the right thing to do.

trisher Mon 02-Dec-19 16:30:05

All I am going to say is that instead of arguing and posting your personal views you might consider what the two people who died would want to be remembered for. If you think it would be for increasing sentences and becoming more draconian that's fine, but if you think they would prefer to be remembered as believing in rehabilitation and second chances then honour their memory appropriately.

Gonegirl Mon 02-Dec-19 16:28:12

Perhaps it was deemed a private function where the usual bag searching rules don't apply. Big mistake though.

jo1book Mon 02-Dec-19 16:26:39

I don't know Fishmongers Hall, but security in that particular conference room should have been tighter. I think there is a case for health and safety to look at, at least.

M0nica Mon 02-Dec-19 16:24:56

as he was born here he is deemed British.

Well of course he is. How many generations do we have to live here before we are just accepted as British. My grandfather on one side and great grandmother on the other emigrated to Britian - but of course, that doesn't count does it? They were Irish. So I am British born.

It is only differently coloured British born here who are deemed to be British. What about the white British Islamic terrorists. Are they ^ deemed^ to be British?

I am glad I am having the wisdom to apply for an Irish passport

pinkquartz Mon 02-Dec-19 16:21:43

this thread is being dominated by some "liberal do gooder types"
who believe they are far superior and know better than everyone else......
I guess they are here to boost their sad ego's.

Gonegirl Mon 02-Dec-19 16:05:11

Firecracker is so right.

Sorry for my contribution.

Firecracker123 Mon 02-Dec-19 15:51:51

How sad turning the murder of two people by a terrorist into a personal attack on Gransnet posters who don't happen to agree with you, how sad and inappropriate.

Whitewavemark2 Mon 02-Dec-19 15:47:39

growstuff I could add a couple more names

Gonegirl Mon 02-Dec-19 15:37:05

Oh nice! hmm

txss off

growstuff Mon 02-Dec-19 15:32:19

jolbrook's and Firecracker's posts sound like the kind of thing spouted by bores at weddings - I'm sure we've all come across the kind of people that nobody wants to sit next to, so they huddle together, chuntering to themselves, while everybody else has fun.

varian Mon 02-Dec-19 15:19:51

Please listen to Jack Merrit's father, who speaks with real moral authority.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-london-bridge-terror-attack-jack-merritt-father-daily-mail-a9228886.html

ExperiencedNotOld Mon 02-Dec-19 15:07:39

Jolbrook. I find that a ludicrous comment. Fishmongers Hall is a public building where people are invited, enter, go about their business and leave again. Indeed, there are events that they may enter without invitation. The management will be aware of the need for security but will also need to balance this will public acceptance as well as the cost of providing the equipment and staff necessary. Imagine having to pay £x extra the next time you go M&S - that’s after being searched on the way in.

jo1book Mon 02-Dec-19 14:31:50

I do hope the Management of the Venue will be sued. As said; how on earth did the jihadist (I refuse to honour him with a name) get in with two knives and a what looked like a suicide vest? We need answers.

Firecracker123 Mon 02-Dec-19 14:25:22

Probably didn't want to offend them, against their human rights.

jo1book Mon 02-Dec-19 14:25:20

They didn't dare; they did't want to upset the ex-offenders - probably PC madness.

Barmeyoldbat Mon 02-Dec-19 14:24:38

its disgraceful that Boris is using it for election reasons and blaming Labour. He has had enough time and chances to change it.

I believe it should be life, no release, for these sort of crimes.

TerriBull Mon 02-Dec-19 14:14:15

Yes I thought that Callistemon, the general public have to hand over handbags/rucksacks etc. to be scanned if visiting a museum or the like. It seems very laissez faire of the organisers not to have put the participants through a thorough search, given their histories.

Callistemon Mon 02-Dec-19 13:55:39

How did he get into a venue like that, on a course designed to rehabilitate ex-prisoners, or to assess how their rehabilitation is going, with a knife?
Let alone a suicide vest.

Surely common sense should dictate that security should be reasonably tight? Having had my handbag searched on several occasions just visiting a tourist venue, I can't understand this at all.

Gonegirl Mon 02-Dec-19 13:53:07

I just heard on the radio that the vest was visible from the start, inside the hall. Those men are true heroes.

MaizieD Mon 02-Dec-19 13:52:07

The Secret Barrister, who I posted about on another thread, said that automatic release* is no longer in force today* but Kahn's sentence, and his sentence as altered by the Appeal judge, was imposed before the new regulations came into force and the new regulations were not applied to then existing sentences.