Brexit dividing my family.

bar ordering a beer, clicking fingers and shouting louder and louder in English!
Well, we all know ill-mannered people of all nationalities - they are the kind of English people who give the rest of the English a bad name.

#liveinWaleslearningWelsh

Some of them, when losing their job, had been here for over 10 years and had never bothered to learn the local language, bar ordering a beer, clicking fingers and shouting louder and louder in English! And yet they get free intensive language courses when suddenly they need to.

We often seem quite happy to refer to EU citizens as immigrants yet ourselves or our kids working in Europe as ‘working in the community’ or ‘living in Europe’. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone describe themselves or their children as immigrants when working in Europe. Or anywhere else actually! And here we are as we relinquish our EU status and have our European passports removed describing those EU citizens who will continue to live and contribute here as immigrants? You, me we will be the immigrants soon if we move to Europe, where for the last forty years we have had European citizenship. If you decide to retire and join your children in Europe, you will be an immigrant just taking advantage of the benefits of living in Europe; well that feels nice and cosy doesn’t it? How does that actually make you feel? My H was very ill whilst in Sicily recently and when he was rushed thro triage, some locals waiting were shouting Nationals First. One man was arguing with a guard with a gun on his hip saying we should be made to wait. I speak Italian and understood what they were saying. God that was frightening and really sad, my husband was much more ill than any of those waiting but they wanted him to wait until all the nationals were seen? To be treated on the basis of his nationality not on his need? But that’s ok cos he soon will be an immigrant!

My pal who moved here from France when she was six, has been educated, gone to uni, worked, married, raised her family paid her taxes and contributed towards her pension, must become British to continue to live here as a full citizen? Why? What hasn’t she contributed that anyone of us have?

Opal, there is a strict 3 months rule for free movement in the EU. *The UK CHOSE not to implement it*- it has nothing to do with the EU. British citizens were and still are, able to go to any EU country and Switzerland, for 3 months, to look for work- if they haven't found work by then, they have to leave. It is quite simple, really - and as said, it was the UK that decided not to enforce. Other countries did, and do.

I know many Brits here on very high salaries- they get child benefit, whether kids live with them in Switzerland, or back home, at a much much higher rate. If they become unemployed, they get 2 years un-employment benefit- at 70% of salary, or 80% if they have child/ren. They are also given courses to help with finding new employment, including free intensive language course, or IT, design- whatever they consider would help.

If the old Danish lady has made Britain her home and has contributed to British society, then of course she should be looked after. As someone who voted Leave, that was never an issue for me. Or for the thousands of skilled people who wish to come here to work and live, and contribute to our economy and our society. What I don't believe in is free movement, and allowing people into the UK who are not able to contribute. Down that path lies chaos and anarchy.

Some countries don't allow dual citizenship. When I wanted to apply for British citizenship years ago I found out that I would lose my Swedish one. I am now so grateful that I chose to retain my Swedish citizenship. Thanks to that our two children and now grandchildren are also Swedish citizens (they are British/Swedish).

Sweden now allows dual citizenship but it saddens me to say that I no longer want to apply for a British one and that feeling is shared by most Scandinavians I know. The people in the group I mix with have lived and worked here for 40-60 years and we have always felt welcome - until after the referendum. A very old Danish lady was asked by a neighbour of hers "why should we pay for looking after you?".

I do know that most of you on here would never make comments like that but you see, the mood in the country has changed.

No, growstuff, have you ever thought of signing up for a "how to talk to people without coming across as a condescending old bat" class?

Have you ever thought of signing up for an elementary course in economics, Opal?

Oh, and we all know what you will have voted for. The most appalling candidate in our history to be PM... It's not as if it's a secret...
Why should I keep it a secret? I am voting Tory, I can't imagine anything worse than Corbyn et al getting into Government, it would be a complete economic disaster.

Well that’s an extremely valid point Varian.

EU citizens living in the UK are allowed to vote in local elections and EU parliament elections, their names are on the electoral register, so of course they should be allowed to vote in UK parliamentary elections and referenda.

No taxation without representation is a fundamental pillar of democracy.

Starblaze
lol oh well I don't have a passport, I can't vote then
I'm assuming you have a birth certificate? I think you'll find that this document trumps a passport when proving your British/ English citizenship.

That’s the situation here too jura, EU citizens (and probably others not from the EU) can vote in local elections but not national elections, as I understand it.

Incidentally, I do feel sorry for EU citizens who are bound up in this mess, and it’s clear that we still need many of them to live and work here. But as I said earlier, my advice to anyone caught up in all of this would be to take out British citizenship. Likewise for British citizens living permanently in the EU to take out citizenship of wherever they are living.

Exactly, I chose to take British nationality- because I arrived in UK before the EU - and had to to remain and work, etc. We 'had to get married' too - not because I was pregnant ... but that was the only way we could stay together.

Had I arrived after the EU, I probably would not have done so, as there would have been no need or incentive to do so - as rights, etc, were protected.

BTW in Switzerland, UK citizens who live here either have a short permit, a B permit or after 5 years, a C permit. C permit holders can vote in local elections, but not in Federal/national elections. The Maire of my Commune (Council) is NOT a Swiss citizen. He was born and bred in Belgium, has lived here for over 20 years- and was elected a Maire, but has chosen not to take Swiss nationality. Doing a great job too.

No, you’re right Maizie, I did know that, and obviously it’s not EU citizens fault that all of this has happened. However, it’s just my opinion obviously, but I do feel that anyone living here full time should naturalise in order to gain full citizens rights. I do know people from Europe who have done this, and it is what I would advise anyone to do who intends to live here permanently.

People who live here, but choose not to become citizens of the UK ..

Thank you for agreeing with me earlier, maddyone, but on this point you seem to forget that EU nationals didn't have to become UK citizens to live here as of right. Any more than did UK nationals living in any other EU country have to become citizens of that country in order to live there as of right. Don't blame them for having the rug pulled from under their feet.

If immigrants decide our fate the country will remain duvided and bitter.

Replace immigrants with “old people”/“women”/whatever

This thought process is so beyond what I would have expected in the U.K. even just 5 years ago. Makes me sad.

Agreed Maizie, clearly if there ever is a second referendum, the criteria to vote must remain the same, anything different would leave itself open to criticism of vote rigging by Parliament.

People who live here, but choose not to become citizens of the UK should not have a vote, the idea is ridiculous in my opinion. However, people who have chosen to become citizens most certainly should have a vote. Where else in the world would a country allow citizens of other countries, who have chosen not to become naturalised, to vote in their elections?

MaizieD, very fair point, agreed

While I very much appreciate the view that, should we have another referendum, EU nationals living here should be able to vote, but I think that Labour has made a mistake in proposing it. If we have another referendum the electorate should be the on the same terms same as for the 2016 ref. To propose anything else muddies the waters far too much.

Lol oh well I don't have a passport, I can't vote then?

Anyone who is a part of the political community, pays taxes and is therfore a stakeholder in their local area and the country as a whole should be able to vote.

The trouble is, jura, it would go out to the membership to vote for a new leader if ever Corbyn acknowledges that he is not the right man and sensible Starmer won't stand a chance.

If people living here and paying taxes, apply for British Citizenship and are accepted, have a British Passport then and only then should they be able to vote in parliamentary elections/referenda.