Brexit dividing my family.

There is no such think as a lovable rogue, except to those benefitting from his roguery. A rogue is someone who exploits other people for his advantage

The problem with referendums, as with elections, is that we must look at how they are established and conducted. There are very few who would say that an election in North Korea or even China was fairly and democratically carried out. The actual voting may be utterly free, but the list of candidates and their views will have been carefully controlled.

The same thing applies to the referendum. In countries who use referenda as part of the democratic process, there are very careful controls as it how the referendum is set up, the question is scrutinised by cross party committees and, where constitutional change is planned a 60% or two thirds majority is required. None of this happened with our referendum. David Cameron, who stands to be remembered in history only for the referendum and nothing else, thought the referendum was a foregone conclusion and gave the question or majority no more than a cursory thought before launching it.

I voted Remain, but believe very strongly that having voted Leave, we should have been out of the EU at the end of 2016. If you belong to a club and want to leave it, you stop paying your subscription and just leave. The whole idea of negotiating leaving conditions is ridiculous and delaying leaving until these are complete.

Of course there is a sting in the tail. If we had just walked away from the EU in 2016 and taken the results of the vote on the nose, I suspect we would be back in the EU by now, somewhat bruised and battered economically, extremely apologetic but relieved to be back where we belong.

How can people vote for someone they describe as a laughable buffoon or a lovable rogue, growstuff? I’m looking for our next Prime Minister not a children’s entertainer!

Is "activist" a dirty word or something?

jura I don't think the not talking about politics is a British thing
I think it must be that one poster.
Politics always was talked about freely when I was growing up and still is despite differences of opinion!

Me whenever anyone on Gransnet says:

"I ' m n o t a p o l i t i c a l a c t i v i s t"

...Must be another political activist...

However, I will say that I don't know anyone at all who is enthusiastic about either Boris or Corbyn as leaders, even if they vote Tory or Labour.

I simply don't move in those circles presumably ie with people who voted to leave the EU.

I'm intrigued, therefore, Alexa, as to what circle you do move in. It must be very small indeed.

Our neighbours, friends and indeed family must be an extremely diverse and mixed bunch of people because some voted to leave and some to remain.
Their politics range from Tory (not extremely rightwing though) through the whole range to Green, although not SNP because we don't live there.

Not that we spend all our time discussing politics btw, although it was discussed post-referendum and occasionally now.

It must give you a very narrow outlook on life otherwise.

growstuff Nope! Didn’t find it.

The Conservative manifesto has some references to changing the role of the judiciary and the constitution itself. Scary stuff!

But people will still vote for it because they're frightened of Corbyn (Project Fear?) and they think Johnson is a laugh, who will "Get Brexit Done".

I absolutely couldn't be friends with people who think like that. It tends to leak out in their attitude to other issues too.

PS. I misread your post. I see you didn't find it either.

Thank you for finding that little snippet DidoLaMents. I looked earlier but gave up. It's a personal opinion about the definition of democracy, with absolutely no consensus from anybody who knows what they're talking about.

maddyone, you can say it again, and again - and NO it is not Democracy. A PM is never above the Law - and you have to take our official sovereign democratic Electoral Commission's into account. Let alone the Report on Russian interference Boris is refusing to publish. Now why would he refuse, if it was NOT damning- what would be the point of that?

Democracy can never ever be based on lies, fraud and foreign interference, and above our Sovereign Law. Especially with such a tiny majority and a meaningless Referendum which can mean dozens or different things to 1000s and 1000s of people. Which Brexit do you want, personally? There are so so many to choose from. And any country where Referendums are legal - would never ever allow a Referendum to go to the people without clearly demonstrated possible outcomes and without solid information on pros and cons. Totally irresponsible and fraudulent nonsense.

So NO I won't respect it- and this is democracy. As gove himself said, if a Democracy can't change its mind (in view of new facts and information) it ceases to be a Democracy.

Bleat is such a rude word- I would never use it myself- but you can .... as much as you want, it won't change anything.

As in the US and other places around the world, similarly controversial issues are dividing friends, families and communities everywhere. No coincidence that these are the same places where Democracy is in peril.

It was Abraham Lincoln who once said "A house divided will not stand". The enemies of Democracy knew this full well. Their strategy has been to systematically 'divide and conquer ' to their advantage. Elections and Referendums are the weapon of choice.

If Western democracy is to survive, there needs to be a unifying force. Find common political ground (there are always merits on both sides) in order to reunite.

Democracy's weapon of choice should be to expose those who seek to create divisions among us.....they are the true enemy.

Im sorry this is such a long post but everything I read here just further displays the deep, deep division in our country and it is so sad. Im not a political activist but I always vote and I will vote tactically this election.
Anyway, I went hunting on the internet for Chesnut’s little chestnut and as MaizieD I couldn’t find any reference to it. However, in my search in HuffPost I came across a woman who started a blog for women called sixty and me. She posted some wise words after the Trump elections and they seem so pertinent. She said:

‘...Accepting the results of the election is not the same as accepting defeat. Given the controversial nature of this campaign, it is more important than ever that we stand up for what we believe in. I urge the women in our community to remember what we have in common. I also said that we should dig deeper to understand the reasons that our friends and colleagues voted the way they did...’ Margaret Manning Sixty and Me

She also said to Trump supporters ’..be good winners..’ . And to Clinton supporters ’..don’t give up..’ and

Don’t accept everything just because you voted for something.

I thought this is one seriously smart woman. The link to the article is below if you want to read it.

So, do you want to know why I feel the way I do? Will vote the way I shall? Why I voted to remain? It’s because I’m frightened of what is happening to my country. Fear is why we all get so angry! Leavers and remainers, I’m sure. But being well informed is what helps us sort out the truth and the fiction. What I find even more alarming tho is the man who stands to win this election has not run an election campaign he is running a marketing campaign; this is why he would not be put under scrutiny by Andrew Neil who is an experienced economist and journalist, who gives nobody an easy ride and asks the difficult questions and he asks the questions we should have answered before we vote! I don’t hate leavers but I hate manipulators. Johnson is not stupid but he is a liar, lazy and doesn’t do his homework; think Manx kippers moment and the Irish border issue. I feel patronised by his trivialising references to oven ready deals. Does he think I’m stupid and so easily palmed off?? I suspect he thinks he can fool all of the people some of the time and some all of the time. That’s why he wants it done... quickly! But behind him is a dangerous man who knows how to press people’s buttons. And I’m sorry but one of those buttons certainly at the time of the referendum was immigration.
Finally, I would like to say if/when we leave it better be right that things will be better. Because if Brexit really does prove to be a disaster, with more austerity, destruction of the NHS and long protracted negotiating those politicians who have lied about easy, oven ready deals will never be forgiven by everyone including those who voted leave!!

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/12894098?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEa6sNvc4UntQpNB-1zAsLqskiZ61JKSs89R5j4Cyi5qeZERLwcTyVpCFNqOdjiE9T06FVZFTCpm7lWrzghtN0ikh0_PmR1jgbh8Hq73vHGQrWPRsYX23X4PjMt7qN7U6sdYKCoxdJQksRWWCTI_vDQHbvth9AEp0YBlJY3NbfIv

I’m sorry jura, but the government of the day at the time of the referendum stated publicly, and on their leaflet which went to every house in the country, that whatever the country voted would be implemented. Therefore it is pointless to bleat on for three years plus that the referendum was advisory. It wasn’t, because the government said it wasn’t. Unfortunately for you, you are one of the minority who do not like the result. That’s tough, but it is what it is, a referendum decided by a majority of the people who voted leave, and which was stated by the government of the day that the result would be implemented. Some people are happy with the result, others are not. That’s democracy.

Brexit is not about 4 or 5 year period though - is it?

And NO a Referendum is NOT how our electoral system works- NO and not at all. A referendum, by our our sovereign Laws, is and can only ever be, advisory. No PM is above the Law- not Cameron, and not Johnson, or any other.

The only reason why the Electoral Commission, despite all the evidence they have gathered- cannot annul the very narrow result- is because the Referendum was NOT legally binding.

Yes Maizie, the freedom to oppose and to demonstrate is very much a part of democracy, you are absolutely correct. What I meant was that even if we don’t like the result, short of demonstrations, we can’t really do anything to change the result of a free election. Incidentally, I was not lecturing you, I’m sorry if it came over so.

Absolutely Gill, with the normal 4/5 year periods of government, the people can change their government if they so wish. However, there will always be voters who are unhappy with the elected government and they must resign themselves to a five year period during which they feel they are not truly represented. With the referendum obviously it is different, but the principle remains true, that some will be happy and others unhappy with the result, and there is little the unhappy people can do about it. All the people cannot be happy with the result of the referendum, but the principle of losers acceptance remains. It is the way our electoral system works, regardless of whether it is a general election or a referendum.

Alexa ''Jura, I never stay with people.'' which is probably why you don't know how they vote or feel about different issues.

When you live abroad, a long way from family and friends- then people do stay with you, and you do stay with them. We often have people staying for more than 2 weeks- and my parents always used to spend 2 to 3 weeks with us- in the Summer or at Christmas. Christmas was sometimes hard, as MIL would come for a few days, and the weather didn't allow for much time spent outdoors. Flights were so expensive then. But we all coped. We try never to spend more than a few days with anyone- as we are so aware how hard it can be to 'entertain', cook, etc- and do it more often.

Perhaps too a different culture. You may find it difficult to get, but the 'not talking about politics' is very much a British thing. In France and in my family, we were always encouraged to discuss everything, be it religion, education, 'politics' if not necessarily party politics. The British FPP system is also very divisive, be it in society or families- as you are seen as either 'a leftie' or 'a Tory'- whereas in other countries with proportional representation in some form, this is just not the case.

When you stay with people, you see the papers on the table, people comment on the articles they read, and the people involved, and comment when watching news, etc. Very different to meeting for a cuppa or a meal.

So funny all these lectures on democracy from the people who aren't the slightest bit embarrassed by the fact that the referendum result is known to be unsafe because of illegality and the very strong likelihood of foreign interference. The May government knew it was a corrupted result, even acknowledged it in court, and the fact that Johnson refuses to release the report on Russian interference can only lead to one conclusion; that he is strongly implicated in it. If it had pointed the finger at anyone else it would have been in the public domain before the ink was dry on it.

You see, another essential of democracy is that governments exercise their role with transparency, everything they do (unless it compromises security) should be open to public scrutiny. Also, elections (which must surely include referendums which are carried out subject to the same Electoral law) should be free of corruption... the 2016 one stinks to high heaven.

Yet another essential of democracy is the freedom to actively oppose.

Agreed Maddyone but the essential difference is that if we are unhappy with a Labour government, there will be the opportunity on five years or less, to vote again and change it. But, if Johnson gets re elected, and sends us crashing out of the EU, we will not have that opportunity to change what he has done in five years time. Not my idea of democracy. For what it is worth, I do not like Corbyn, or any of his colleagues, but I fear Johnson and his. The possible financial implications of a Labour govt are more favourable than the social implications of a further period of Tory austerity with its division, social unrest and tax cuts for those who don't need them.

Maizie, you have stated you don’t accept the result of the referendum. In actual fact you have to accept the result because you cannot change it. You can rail against it as much as you like, you can say you don’t accept it, but there is nothing you can do to change it! I hope Corbyn won’t win the election but if he does, then there’s nothing I will be able to do change that fact, so I will have to put up with it and watch as he bankrupts the country. That’s how it goes Maizie, it’s called democracy.

I guess my colours are nailed to the mast by my user name. This year I have not been able to campaign for my local Independent Candidate due to ill health, but we have her boards on display in our garden, support her on social media, and we have made financial donations to her campaign.

I don't support a single political party; I strongly believe that Governance in the UK is unfit for purpose and our so called 'democracy' is a sham.

If you look at my posts on GN I think you will find evidence that although I am an 'activist' I am considerate and don't denigrate other people's views - however strongly I may disagree with them. My own experience of working with people who are on the margins of society has caused my political understanding to evolve and change, so I have no reason to think that others are not also developing and changing their political views.

"Facts" -(sorry bad news time that sound like glasping at straws, if the ones you post on here are any indication, (no wonder your audience glazed over, as we do, - learn social cues, and stop bullying your message across - you will not persuade anybody, even if your logic was not skewed, with a bitter attitude.
So hoping you don't knock on my door with your bad attitudes...
Remainers on here seem awfully angered by democracy, especially the part where there are differing opinions in a democratic vote whereupon there is a winning side.

Deliver your message in a civil way, then accept when it is discounted, and avoid winding yourselves up.

She's tough and doesn't react, although I sometimes do - very politely. They have nothing to say and walk away, swearing or muttering. I know it gets her down sometimes. I couldn't ever be friends with people who spout such stuff.

growstuff
Your poor friend, how disheartening